Talk:Lugia (Pokémon)

Necessary

Is it really necessary to say that Pressure is cancelled by Mold Breaker? Inker 22:09, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Not really... TTEchidna 05:34, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

"Ruler" of the seas?

Was there ever a line in generation II that said he was some sort of "King" "lord" of the seas? Or was that only in the second movie?(Fossilgojira 02:22, 12 June 2008 (UTC))

Biology

The biology section here is heavily based upon its anime-canon version, which is not unique, rather than what is known about the unique game-canon version. As such, it should be mentioned when it is referring to its presentation in the anime rather than the more universal qualities of the species. As it is, the article treats Lugia as if all Lugia are Lugia from the anime, rather than legendary individuals unique to the game it is from. Satosuke 02:27, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I do notice that every Pokemon has a section devoted to "In the Anime," "In the Manga," but nothing has a section called "In the Games." Sheesh, it's not like the games have no plot! IIMarckus 02:46, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Um, I assumed that everything outside of the "In the Animé," and "In the Manga," sections was game-canon. :\ - Lucadan (talk • contribs) 15:16, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

In My Opinion Lugia seems to have been inspired by Ziz in some fators. I dont see how Rayquaza could be and not Lugia. - unsigned comment from RegiJack (talk • contribs)

Name Origin

It does not seem at all relevant to mention Luigi here. Does anyone agree?? I didn't wanna be a jerk and just delete it. Soon to be Mrs. Shirley 14:24, 18 October 2008

You’re right, that’s completely ridiculous. I removed the sentence. IIMarckus 20:11, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

SoulSilver speculation?

This article claims that "Lugia is the version mascot of Pokémon Silver and Pokémon SoulSilver, appearing on the boxart of both." Since no official boxart image has been released for these new games, I believe that it is pure speculation, although Lugia would most likely be on the cover in the future. The same claim is also made regarding to Ho-oh and Pokémon HeartGold - unsigned comment from Daninjango (talk • contribs)

Take a look at the logo. They are stylized versions of Ho-Oh and Lugia. Plus, they are confirmed to be remade versions of the original GS. It's pretty much confirmed. — THE TROM — 07:44, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Version Mascots have always been featured on boxart. Saying Lugia won't be on SoulSilver's boxart is like saying Team Galactic will triumph in the anime. We know that the twerps will somehow defeat Team Galactic and we know Lugia will be on the boxart for SoulSilver. Galladeon 02:09, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Moveset Trivia

Since Lugia's Level up moves list changed, doesn't that mean it's moveset is not the same in SoulSilver as it was in Gold and vice versa? Shouldn't that trivia be removed? I'd do it, but Lugia (and Ho-Oh)'s page can't be edited.--Purimpopoie 20:39, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Moveset

Since its moveset has changed almost entirely from DPt to HGSS, isn't better to put them in different boxes? The same goes for Ho-Oh. -- RikkiKitsune 05:06, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Halcyon Days

Lugia's ability to quell the ceaseless fighting between the legendary birds and control the weather to calm storms seems to be based on the 'Greek Legend of Alcyone' which resulted in the creation of an annual period of tranquility called the 'Halcyon Days'. --Arima 13:09, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Relation to Arceus?

In SoulSilver one of the Kimono Girls says: Tamao says, “That is Lugia… Since the ancient days, this town has called it the guardian deity of the sky." Does that mean it to be a God Pokemon relation to Arceus (same with Ho-Oh in HG). -LugiaRocks (^Talk ★ Edits) 19:42, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Wait, i though Ho-Oh was the Guardian of the Sky and Lugia was Sea. Morgil27 19:50, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Anime Appearance

Why is it stated that Ash and Misty act like they have never seen a Lugia before when encountering Silver and parent? In the English dub, at least, Ash specifically states that he had seen a Lugia in the Orange Isles before, which is in direct reference to the second movie.--Zandock 21:09, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Wyvern?

I find Lugia looks quite a lot like a Wyvern. I was wondering if that should be mentioned, as Wyverns typically are shown as being dragons with two legs, two wings, and long necks/tails; which sounds a lot like Lugia's general appearance. --Dragoon 01:10, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

This doesn't sound so implausible...we generally assume it's just a bird, but then again, we do point out the Ryujin parallels, and he's a dragon.—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 06:12, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Takeshi Shudo(scenario writer of anime) created Lugia.

Column by Takeshi Shudo. http://www.style.fm/as/05_column/shudo206.shtml Sawamular101 04:36, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Sea swallow

The Glaucus atlanticus looks kind of like Lugia. Maybe it can go in the origin section? - unsigned comment from Carolyn81 (talk • contribs)

• I don't see any resemblance to Lugia at all. :( - 050294 00:09, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Ancient Bird

I Remember that there was a bird that lived in the seas, and its wings had "digits" Similar to Lugia, its neck and body was also long as well. Could go on the Origins right? XXRaigoXx 07:56, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Do you remember its name?—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 09:16, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Unfortuntly no but maybe i can look it up ill do it now. XXRaigoXx 07:36, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Okay found it. it was called Hesperornis after seeing it for such a long time i realized tbe only thing that had with common with lugia is the feet maybe, the wings were actually just a stub but maybe it's the wrong bird cause i was sure it had wings to swim with. XXRaigoXx 07:46, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Takeshi Shudō

I know there is a section in this talk page about Lugia's creator being Takeshi Shudō, but I didn't want to drag up conversation that is over three months old. :/ Does anyone think Shudō's death be mentioned on this page? We have a whole Bulbanews post about it and all... Phantom♫Junkie 06:27, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

It's definitely worth mentioning somewhere (it's mentioned on his article) but I don't really think it needs to be mentioned here. His death doesn't really have anything to do with Lugia. :P --ZestyCactus 06:31, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Before yersterday, I hadn't noticed the claim that Shudō had created Lugia. Even though I wish this were a better time to be raising my doubts, I have to say that I'm highly skeptical as to the veracity of that statement.

The reason that Shudō's column makes me raise an eyebrow is that Gold and Silver were supposed to be released in early 1998, so Lugia must have existed in some form back then - at a time when Shudō was working on Movie 1. In fact, I would think that Lugia would have been seen in the opening of the demo that was playable in the Spaceworld 1997 event; this website even lists Lugia as one of the earliest known Pokémon whose data changed as a result of the delay (its Pokédex number was altered).

More importantly, eight Pokémon designers were listed in the game credits. Why wasn't Shudō's name included? He should have at least been given a special thanks if he had really designed one of the version mascots; I can't imagine that Game Freak wouldn't have given him credit where due.

I don't wish to taint Shudō's reputation or anything like that, but it seems to me that he was fond of Lugia that he chose to embellish his part in its creation. I can easily believe that he was the one who coined the term "Pokémon X" and thought of associating Lugia with the bird trio, as well as giving it the role of a protector. But those things didn't influence the games at all, and I don't think that a blog column made more than 10 years after the fact is enough to change that. Unown Lord 08:03, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Your opinion can be understood. It might be a person who thought about the conception. Sawamular101 04:38, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Maybe change it to "helped with the creation of Lugia". —darklordtrom 07:20, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

TCG Water-type trivia

With the possible exceptions of Beedrill, Venemoth and Flying Pikachu's Fighting type resistance, is Lugia the only Pokemon depicted as having a type it does not actually have? Excluding Delta Species, etc. obviously. XVuvuzela2010X 16:47, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

......

Why was my trivia was taken out? It was relevant--Ash0011 22:00, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Do you mean this?

Lugia seems to represent the moon and shares this distinction with Lunatone

While I wasn't the one who removed it, how exactly does it represent the moon (and Ho-Oh the sun)? The only proof I can think of is that the title screen of Silver, featuring Lugia, is set at night, while the Gold title screen with Ho-Oh is during the day. If you can provide good evidence for it then they could be added back. XVuvuzela2010X 23:51, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

The Silver title screen wasn't during the night. It was under water. You can't tell if it's night or day. ^★Jo the Marten^★ ಠ_ಠ 23:55, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Instead of 'seems to', I think it'd be better to use 'may', and to omit the part about Lunatone, because it misrepresents the trivia item as fact, though I think it may be a bit too speculative to add in the first place, since there isn't really a good reason why it may be considered a representation of the moon or nighttime. Also, Ash0011, please be a bit more specific in your discussion titles in the future, thanks. --Landfish7 00:11, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Actually, you're (Jo The Marten) right, I just looked up the opening for SoulSilver on Youtibe, and if it is underwater, the Silver one will be too. I blame the GameBoy's crap graphics. So, no proof for that trivia then. XVuvuzela2010X 00:14, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Well it doesn't help that Gold and Silver had the same background for the intro, just different colors. ^^; So while Ho-oh is in the clouds, it can look like Lugia is above a dark sky. But yes, I saw no solid evidence of their speculation so I removed the trivia. ^★Jo the Marten^★ ಠ_ಠ 00:23, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Well I actually thought that Lugia was supposed to be flying over the waves of the sea, but I'm starting to get a bit off-topic now. So unless Ash0011 or someone else can provide evidence otherwise, no evidence for Lugia at least. XVuvuzela2010X 00:33, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

1. 1 it's supposed to be silver a color commonly attributed to the moon #2 it is psychic and the whole thing about the moon and supernatural powers #3 it also can control water despite being psychic and the moon controlls the tides... need I go on--Ash0011 23:31, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

1. Is it associated with the moon?
2. ???
3. Besides using Water-type attacks, Lugia doesn't control the seas, and has never been mentioned to.

XVuvuzela2010X 00:08, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

the water attaks are what I meant and it's also very so associated with water being refered to as king of the sea in the anime--Ash0011 01:18, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Required for Pokédex completion in DPPt?

Lugia and Ho-Oh were considered "Event Pokémon" for the duration of the 4th generation before HeartGold and SoulSilver were released. Were they counted in the completion of the DPPt Pokédex? If not, this would be worthy trivia. --Swagmander 03:56, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

That's almost certainly why they were considered event Pokémon. Werdnae (talk) 04:18, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

So... Were they required? - Swagmander 21:37, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

As far as I'm aware, Pokémon marked as 'event' in the Dex coding are marked as such so that it still counts as a completed dex if they are not obtained. I don't know of any other reason why it would be necessary to mark them as such. Werdnae (talk) 04:24, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Possible Trivia?

Despite the fact that it has the ability to create powerful storms for days, it can not learn Hurricane. It was mentioned on the move's page, should it be also mentioned here, or is there no point in adding it? ---Insert Witty Dialog Here NateVirus(Talk) 04:38, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure it should be mentioned at all. Powerful storms doesn't necessarily mean a Hurricane. Werdnae (talk) 06:28, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

• Good point, just was wondering since that it is mentioned under the move's trivia. ---NateVirus(Talk|Contributions) 03:42, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

reasons lugia and ho-oh represent the sun and the moon

Points that show lugia represents the moon: referred to as the king of the sea in the anime, uses water type attacks despite no water type affiliation(like the moon controls the tides, pictured underwater despite not having any other water type affiliation, it is silver (the color of the moon), its opposite ho-oh represents the sun. Ho-oh represents the sun because: it uses fire-type attacks, it bears a direct similarity to the phoenix (wich is commonly associated with the sun), its wings are the colors of the rainbow (bent sunlight) these two could have nothing to do with the sun and the moon, but with the given evidence the chances of that are astronomically slim--Ash0011 02:04, 18 October 2011 (UTC) If nobody objects in the next day or so then I'm going to add this as trivia.--Ash0011 18:31, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

This is still here. I doubt anyone's opinion on this has changed, otherwise they would have stated. ^★Jo the Marten^★ ಠ_ಠ♥ 18:35, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Editing

I removed the name origin part about Lu- coming from luna meaning moon. Also removed how it may come from beluga and how its appearance may also be based off it. Being white and big is all they have in common.

The blurb about it looking like a stegosaurus did not make much sense to list, giving that the previous wyvern example better represents it since it's origin is from a dragon. - unsigned comment from Since97andOn (talk • contribs)

Trivia addition

Is it worth mentioning that although multiple sources say Lugia can create whirlpools at will (and it is found at the Whirl Islands), Lugia cannot learn the move Whirlpool by any means? Tk3141 05:33, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Except that it can in Generations II and IV. Ataro 05:54, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Weird trivia nonsense

"It is suggested that Ryūjin, a dragon who lived on the ocean floor and was the Shinto god of the sea, is a possible basis for Lugia. The two have similarities in mythology, and further evidence lies in Lugia's Shiny coloration: red and white are also the colors of the coral of which the Ryūgū-jō's palace was mad" It doesn't make sense to cite this as evidence Flintlock (talk) 07:42, 4 August 2012 (UTC) for anything, although I do believe that this is part of Lugia's origin. There are so many random Pokemon with random colours, why would this be evidence for anything??

More Trivia Stuff

The Trivia says that Lugia is the only legendary Pokémon to appear on the boxart for more than one game, not including remakes. What about Kyurem? It appears on the boxart for Black 2 and White 2... KyuremsIceBlade (talk) 16:35, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks to whoever changed the trivia! :D KyuremsIceBlade (talk) 22:55, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Pokédex entries.

Why is BW entry not the same as from Platinum? Well okay, B2W2 changed (ironically, to Platinum's entry), similar to Ho-Oh (was that actual change or just mistake with BW entry in Ho-Oh's case? Is there more Pokémon not in new Unova Pokédex to do that?) Marked +-+-+ (talk) 14:44, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Name Origin

This is just speculation of course, but the name may have a some influence from Migaloo, a White Humpback Whale first discovered in 1991. It's quite famous in Australia, which is a national friend of Japan and common vacation destination for many, so he may have also become somewhat popular in Japan and influenced Lugia's name.- unsigned comment from MrBurrows (talk • contribs)

Morimoto Interview about Lugia

https://www.reddit.com/r/pokemon/comments/5zfwku/the_reason_why_lugia_is_not_watertype_official/ Found this while looking around. Apparently Morimoto made an interview about Lugia's design. Trainer Yusuf (talk) 23:28, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Lutetium

The name origin section lists the element lutetium as a possible name origin... Honestly, I see very little similarity. The name "Lugia" sounds barely similar to "Lugia" apart from the "lu" part, and I see barely any reason on a definition level, apart from a very loose connection to the color silver. I see even less of a similarity to "Lutetia". I think that these name origin possibilites can go. --Celadonkey 01:12, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

DYKG episode on Lugias origins

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQbKwNmsTes This has a lot of information that is probably important to lugia, including commentary from its original creator. A lot of this should be on the page. Pallukun (talk) 01:28, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Lugia's origins

Having had an opportunity to go through the blog posts the video's creator cites, a lot of it appears to be mistranslated. I probably should restrain myself from accusing them of willful mistranslation just to get attention, but the question can be asked. Nonetheless, any level of skepticism applied would've dismissed this as ridiculous. This very talk page had a very similar conversation about a decade ago, and even without the benefit of knowing about the Spaceworld beta designs and some trivia about Shudo's estate, came to the conclusion their bets ought to be hedged w/r/t such a claim. I am actually inclined to suggest any bit of information on this site linking to this channel or this person's website as a source should be reviewed for accuracy of the translation of his alleged sources, but that might be overkill. Claiming to "have a scoop" on who created Lugia, and really exaggerating Shudo's personality and so on, seems to be the one lie that got him the clicks needed to launch a successful? Youtube career, and translation work aside from that appears above board. On the circles of the internet I'm on, everyone knew this was balderdash, but it appears that in the past two years this has become accepted 'fact' in the larger Pokémon community and it's absurd it has been this site for 2 years and no one bothered to double check this. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and there is no evidence to support Shudo as Lugia's creator. --INTERNETFRIEND (talk) 15:35, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

So i looked into this, and i think the problem here is that there are two separate entries in Shudo's blog that seem to contradict each other?

• In this entry, Shudo says: 「ルギアという名とそのデザインは後に決定……誰のアイデアか記憶にない。」 (English translated using DeepL, it reads, "The name Lugia and its design were decided later ...... I don't remember whose idea it was."
• However, in this other entry, Shudo credited himself for coming up with the idea for Lugia: 「ゲームや配給会社などの人たちが集まる大会議の多数決で、ルギアという名前が決まったのは、前にも述べた。Ｘことルギアは、この映画専用に僕が考えたポケモンで、映画の後にできたゲームやＴＶアニメのエピソードにまで登場してきたのは、僕自身驚いた。」 (English translation, again using DeepL, reads, "I have already mentioned that the name Lugia was decided by a majority vote at a large meeting of people from game and distribution companies, etc. Lugia, or X, is a Pokémon that I came up with specifically for this movie, and it even appeared in a game and TV anime episode that came after the movie, to my own surprise.")

Ultimately i think this is where the confusion lies. Personally, what i think happened is that Shudo did come up with the idea or rough concepts for Lugia, but then the design itself was handled by someone else (most likely at Game Freak), and then the name was decided at a company vote. Of course, using DeepL is different from having an actual human translator, so i might be wrong here, but yeah. Anzasquiddles (talk) 16:02, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Just to let you know, the admin team are looking into this to come up with a solution, so I suggest no further edits for now--BigDocFan, Junior Admin Bulbapedia (talk) 16:07, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Good call. Also i talked about this on the Bulbagarden Discord and someone pointed out that the two entries don't actually inherently contradict each other. That made me realize, in the former entry, Shudo never said he didn't conceive Lugia; just that the design was made later and he couldn't remember who did it. He could as well just forget he conceived the idea until much later when he realized "Oh yeah i did come up with that, huh". Anzasquiddles (talk) 16:12, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Here is the index page for Shudo's blog; all 226 entries of it. I decided to read up on some of the blog posts with ルギア (Lugia) in the title and here's what i found:

• In #191 and #194, Shudo talks at length about Lugia's gender (the whole "Shudo thinks Lugia should've been female" thing).
• In #193, Shudo once again mentions how he came up with Lugia for the movie, and how he's surprised that it was put in the games.
• And in #197, he talks about co-existence of life, and the meaning of death, and also Team Rocket... yeah it's a thing.

You can check out the index page to see more of Shudo's blog posts. Anzasquiddles (talk) 16:53, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Hi, uhmmmm, I was asked to look at the excerpts from Shudo-san by the Bulbapedia team!! I'm takoyaki, a staff member of Bulbagarden, I do newswriting, run the Tumblr, and do other random stuff. Anyways, I'll be analyzing the posted excerpts (I have translated things before, for Bulbagarden and personal use, so please don't worry about the veracity of my translation):

• 「ルギアという名とそのデザインは後に決定……誰のアイデアか記憶にない。」 the DeepL translation posted above is correct, basically he's saying "The name of Lugia and its' design was decided upon later, I don't recall who's idea it was."

• 「ゲームや配給会社などの人たちが集まる大会議の多数決で、ルギアという名前が決まったのは、前にも述べた。Ｘことルギアは、この映画専用に僕が考えたポケモンで、映画の後にできたゲームやＴＶアニメのエピソードにまで登場してきたのは、僕自身驚いた。」 Right here he's saying, "I've already said that at a big meeting with the people who did the film and games and stuff, the name of Lugia was decided by majority vote. Lugia, or X, was created specifically for the use of the movie by myself, and I was quite surprised when it was used afterwards in the games and included in (an) episode(s) of the TV anime." So basically the DeepL translation is correct too.

If there's anything else you'd like me to look into or translate, please don't hesitate to ask me!!

Lisianthus (talk) 19:12, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Conceiving a Pokémon is very different from designing it. When Atsuko Nishida is given a design order from Tajiri to make a 'cute Pokémon' and comes up with Pikachu, it is not the case that we understand Tajiri to be Pikachu's designer. Shudo's blog entries are vague about what he conceived Lugia of being – and, in fact, where he is specific, that isn't what Lugia was in the end anyways. e.g. he didn't like the name, he didn't like that it wasn't portrayed as more feminine, and so on. It is a stretch to say he conceived of anything at all except "I want a new Pokémon for the movie". --INTERNETFRIEND (talk) 19:16, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

If you can clarify how "created specifically for the use of the movie by myself" could be translated alternatively, it will help out, as that can be read ambiguously in English. --INTERNETFRIEND (talk) 19:31, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Something like, uhmmmm, well I'll break down the sentence:

Ｘことルギアは、この映画専用に僕が考えたポケモン

Xことルギアは、 (X, or Lugia was,) この映画専用に (for the specific use of this movie) 僕が考えたポケモン (A Pokémon thought of by myself.)

I hope that clears up more, really you can't translate it in another way? Maybe? Like, like... he's basically saying that, for the movie (I'm assuming Pokémon 2001, didn't it have Lugia?), he thought of Lugia (in some way or form), and it was originally intended to only be used for the movie. But after the movie was produced, to his surprise, it was further used in other media. Lisianthus (talk) 19:43, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Sorry for the pedantry on my part. Thank you very much for your translation and the clarification. --INTERNETFRIEND (talk) 19:50, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm glad to have helped, if you or anyone else needs anything feel free to contact me~ Lisianthus (talk) 20:01, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

To recap: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The above perusal of Shudo's blog entries suggest that he came up with the idea of a Pokémon "X" for the script he was writing, and then submitted this request to GAME FREAK and received Lugia in return. It should be pointed out Shudo has several points of order he is unhappy with with the Pokémon given to him to use in the movie.

I acknowledge there is some semantic debate between 'create' and 'design' but you need to analyze how this is used in other situations. Satoshi Tajiri created the idea of Pokémon, but we do not usually credit Tajiri as the creator of every last Pokémon. Likewise, when a game designer submits a request for a Pokémon to the monster design team, we usually think of the monster designer as the given Pokémon's creator, not the game designer. There can be some room for manouver here depending on how precise the request is – if the game designer requests a "cute Pokémon" or a "bug Pokémon" or a "powerful looking Bug type", we'd usually say that the monster designer was the actual creator and designer, but if the game designer requests a "pink Pokémon with floral patterns" – yeah, no, Atsuko Nishida, one of the 18 people credited as Pokémon Character Designer in Pokémon Black and White is credited as Munna's designer, and we never see anyone suggest any of the four individuals who wrote that line in Pokémon Red and Green is its creator instead of Nishida.

If Shudo had requested to Game Freak "I want a Psychic/Flying bird/dragon-esque Pokémon that is Ho-Oh's counterpart called Lugia" or something even nearing that, the semantic debate of Lugia's creation would be fair ball. What is had instead is "I want a new Pokémon for this movie I'm writing – which, for the sake of it, we'll call X for now," and Game Freak actually came back to him with a Pokémon which looks suspiciously similar to scrapped Pokémon found in beta builds of Pokémon 2. Still, maybe there is some room here for creation vs designed.

There are 8 individuals credited as Pokémon Designers in the final build of Pokémon Gold and Silver. Ken Sugimori, Motofumi Fujiwara, Shigeki Morimoto, Atsuko Nishida, Hironobu Yoshida, Muneo Saito, Satoshi Oota, and Rena Yoshikawa. Shudo doesn't even get a special thanks. Not in Gold and Silver, not in Pokémon Crystal, not any game subsequent. For those unaware, the animation team of Mewtwo Strikes Back Evolution had to get permission from Shudo's estate to create that movie at all, and the Mewtwo in the XY movies was deliberately a 'legally distinct' character from the Mewtwo of M1, which was written by Shudo. Whatever the nature of the contract Shudo, as a movie writer, had with Nintendo/Creatures/Game Freak/otherwise at the time, it certainly doesn't sound like one where anyone would be inclined to put a Pokémon he might have intellectual property rights to in their games, in perpetuity. Why would they need Shudo's permission to include a characterization of Mewtwo, a Pokémon no one would seriously argue he created or designed, but not his permission to include a Pokémon he allegedly created, in the video games? The answer is pretty clear – he isn't Lugia's creator. If that is good enough for the law, it should be good enough for Bulbapedia. But that's not even what I'm looking for here.

It's really just about cutting this rumor off from being spread as 'fact', and Bulbapedia is a reputable source on this circle of the internet. What cannot be demonstrably proven should not be left up on the site until proven false. I am not looking for this article or Shudo's article either, to act as staging grounds to revert this 'fact' from continuing to spread online. What I'm looking for is a concession that we don't know for sure the degree to how involved, detailed, or exact Shudo's request is – we also don't know for sure whether they didn't just give Shudo a new version of a beta design they had already been working on.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. No evidence exists to suggest Shudo created Lugia. --INTERNETFRIEND (talk) 21:40, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

when a game designer submits a request for a Pokémon to the monster design team, we usually think of the monster designer as the given Pokémon's creator, not the game designer

That's a terrible argument. First and foremost because there's so many situations that could fit inside that "request".

One: yes, if the game designer says, "Gimme some grass Pokemon!", that doesn't make them the creator of those Pokemon. However... Two: if someone says, "Hey, I had this cool idea for a Pokemon that looks like a show dog/poodle and you can change its hairstyles and stuff, can you draw that up?", I'd say the "requestor" (as you put it) is the creator. The designer drew the other person's idea; they didn't create it from whole cloth, no substantial direction from anyone.

Now, in many cases, we have no idea who (if anyone) besides an artist contributed to any given Pokemon's creation. But if we have cases like Lugia here where we do have word that someone came up with the Pokemon, then we should give them some credit on the page. If they didn't draw them, cool: so-and-so came up with the Pokemon, but the artist is [unknown/designer].

If Shudo had requested to Game Freak "I want a Psychic/Flying bird/dragon-esque Pokémon that is Ho-Oh's counterpart called Lugia" or something even nearing that, the semantic debate of Lugia's creation would be fair ball. What is had instead is "I want a new Pokémon for this movie I'm writing – which, for the sake of it, we'll call X for now,"

Show me where this was said. As far as I can tell, you're putting words in his mouth. He said he created it. And you're assuming that only means he said, "Gimme something cool" or whatever. He could easily have given a lot of details he'd thought of, like, "Gimme a big bird Pokemon, and it's kinda black and white, and it's the guardian of the sea so it should be flowing or something". Frankly, if he said he "created" it, I think that's the only reasonable interpretation. If he had just said, "Gimme something", I don't think he would have said "I created it". You say "Shudo's blog entries are vague about what he conceived Lugia of being", but that's no reason to doubt that he did give enough detail to, as he stated, have "created" it. He said he created it. So why do you assume that, just because he didn't go into any details, then that means he didn't "create" it? That makes no sense. (Frankly, it makes sense that he wouldn't go into details, because Lugia exists now, there's no need for him to be redundant and say, "Yeah, I told them to make Lugia like this and this" and just repeat what we already know.)

What I'm looking for is a concession that we don't know for sure the degree to how involved, detailed, or exact Shudo's request is – we also don't know for sure whether they didn't just give Shudo a new version of a beta design they had already been working on.

This doesn't matter. Shudo said he created it. There's nothing explicitly contradicting it. Until there's contradiction, we take him at his word. He deserves that respect. Tiddlywinks (talk) 23:34, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

I believe I discussed this with you on the Discord. I ask you to point out where Shudo said he created it, you ambiguously state the blog entries. Insofar as words being put in anyone's mouth, you're putting words in Shudo's. --INTERNETFRIEND (talk) 01:16, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

n.b. the key word in your entry is assumptions. Indeed, I am assuming it's possible that Shudo's order was vague. Which means we cannot know with confidence that Shudo 'created' Lugia. You're assuming Shudo's order was less vague. Cool, great, but in the absence of proof you cannot state with confidence that Shudo 'created' Lugia. I note also you have not addressed the legal – i.e. meaningful – evidence, which, indeed, suggests Shudo categorically did NOT create Lugia. - unsigned comment from INTERNETFRIEND (talk • contribs)

Insofar as any question of respect, why is benefit of doubt vis a vis respect granted to someone who is very unlikely to have created Lugia, and none to any of Ken Sugimori, Motofumi Fujiwara, Shigeki Morimoto, Atsuko Nishida, Hironobu Yoshida, Muneo Saito, Satoshi Oota, and Rena Yoshikawa, one of which any sober analysis will conclude actually created Lugia? - unsigned comment from INTERNETFRIEND (talk • contribs)

Your "analysis" is on one hand just guessing (saying anyone "actually" created Lugia is naked guessing) and on the other conflation (you keep hammering on the point that he didn't draw it, like drawing is the only valid kind of "creation", and it absolutely isn't). I'm not assuming Shudo's order was less vague, I'm trusting that when he said he created Lugia, he meant just that, and he didn't mean he "requested it vaguely" which would've been worded very differently. This isn't assumption, this is reasonable communication.

It's simply not your place to say he's "unlikely". He said he created it. 僕が考えたポケモン, "a Pokemon I came up with". (This is also in the Lava Cut Content article, it handily says "create".) In the absence of explicit refutation, it is nothing short of disrespect to insist his word is false.

To try to be clear here: I'm not saying he drew any art of Lugia. But he said 僕が考えた, so we will credit him with the originating idea. Tiddlywinks (talk) 04:05, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

I requested my prior comments to be deleted. In retrospect, no response is required on my part to Tiddlywinks. His comment ignores the entirety of what I have posted in favor of returning to trivial debate about 'create', which is something Shudo never claimed to do. I leave it to the reader to determine the truth and staff actions to determine the policies of this Wiki regarding original research, translation verification, and overall veracity of secondary sources. --INTERNETFRIEND (talk) 14:21, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Talk page comments aren't deleted (short of egregious abuse).

You left off your introduction with, "there is no evidence to support Shudo as Lugia's creator". (Likewise your second comment. And your fifth, and seventh, and eighth...) If who "created" Lugia is "trivial", I honestly have no idea what you were trying to argue...

At any rate, I'm sorry, I thought I was fundamentally responding to the main issue. I acknowledge that there were some points that I didn't explicitly address, but I thought they'd just obscure the main point. If you'd like to point out what you think is more important and has been ignored, I'd be glad to address it directly. Tiddlywinks (talk) 14:43, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

For the record, this overall discussion advanced on Discord from approximately 0700 UTC (Sep 25). It is far too long to replicate here, but here are the links to the start and the end of that, for "historical" purposes. (Some discussion had occurred prior to the first message linked as well, but that more or less paralleled comments above; I leave it to anyone who may so desire to look back for themselves (the very first comment is something like 12 hours earlier).)

Staff members who were not around for the main Discord discussion gave some input as well and this is what will be added to this article's text.

* [[Takeshi Shudo]], script writer for [[M02|the second movie]], created the character of Pokemon X for the movie as a new Pokémon that symbolizes ocean currents.<ref>[http://www.style.fm/as/05_column/shudo187.shtml シナリオえーだば創作術 第187回]</ref> This role was ultimately filled by Lugia, whose name and design were created by someone else.<ref>[http://www.style.fm/as/05_column/shudo188.shtml シナリオえーだば創作術 第188回]</ref> Shudo was surprised when Lugia later showed up in the Pokémon {{pkmn|games}}, having expected it to be exclusive to the movie.<ref>[http://www.style.fm/as/05_column/shudo206.shtml シナリオえーだば創作術 第206回]</ref><ref>[http://lavacutcontent.com/takeshi-shudo-ending-pokemon/ Pokemon’s Head Writer: Booze, Pills, and Ending Ash’s Story – Lava Cut Content]</ref>

Rather than demanding anyone who wants to know about those references know Japanese, I will explain the salient parts here.

• Shudo's entry 187. 生命の源という仮説を持つ深層海流を象徴する映画独自のポケモンＸ（エックス）という当初ゲームにいなかった……後にルギアという名前がつけられる……を、登場させることも了解された。 "They approved the inclusion of Pokemon X, a Pokemon not in the first games—an original creation for the movie—who is theorized as the source of all life and is the symbol of the deep ocean currents. It was later given the name Lugia." The "theorized" part is honestly kinda weird. The kanji is similar to 伝説 "legend", but those words sound very different, so I don't know how it'd be possible to confuse them when composing a blog post. Meaning, I suppose, that "theory" is intended; it just sounds pretty weird in my (perhaps imperfect) understanding of Japanese.
• Shudo's entry 188. ポケモン２作目はＸ（エックス）爆誕という仮名に決定、ルギアという名とそのデザインは後に決定……誰のアイデアか記憶にない。 "The second movie was provisionally named X's Explosive Birth; the name Lugia and its design were decided later... I don't remember whose idea it was." Exactly what the last sentence refers to is very unclear.
• Shudo's entry 206. Ｘことルギアは、この映画専用に僕が考えたポケモンで、映画の後にできたゲームやＴＶアニメのエピソードにまで登場してきたのは、僕自身驚いた。 Cribbing from Lava Cut Content: "Since [X, aka] Lugia was a Pokémon I created myself solely for the new movie, I was surprised it ended up getting used later in the games and TV show." The Lava Cut Content translation drops a worthwhile bit of nuance by only writing Lugia instead of "X aka Lugia" for Ｘことルギア.
• The Lava Cut Content article contains a translation of Shudo's entry 206. The translation omits the end of the article (starting from 昨日の私), which seems to have no relation to Pokemon.

Tiddlywinks (talk) 23:17, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Archive of Shudo's blogs mentioning Lugia

For completeness' sake, i'm just gonna go ahead and post every single one of Shudo's blog posts where he mentions Lugia (ルギア) in any capacity. Some of these are only in passing, while other entries has him describe his thoughts in a lot more detail. Anzasquiddles (talk) 15:43, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

• Entry #84
• Entry #175
• Entry #182
• Entry #183
• Entry #184
• Entry #186 (he refers to Lugia with X（エックス）)
• Entry #187
• Entry #188
• Entry #189
• Entry #191
• Entry #192
• Entry #193
• Entry #194
• Entry #195
• Entry #197
• Entry #198
• Entry #199
• Entry #200
• Entry #201
• Entry #202
• Entry #204
• Entry #205
• Entry #206
• Entry #208
• Entry #210
• Entry #216