Talk:Pokémon Gold and Silver beta

Picture-heavy, no? evkl 23:04, 18 November 2005 (CST)

We have a problem -- this article is almost a direct copy of this page here: Pokémon Gold & Silver - Development Reconstruction

argh. all the pictures are direct copies. Do we have permission?

Well. We can assume that given the kind of reaction I've received from the author of this article, that User:Celebi23 and the author of that page are one and the same... But, seeing as de:Pokémon Gold & Silber (Beta) exists, hmm, it makes matters more confusing. - 振霖_T 00:29, 19 November 2005 (CST)

Hi there. I'm xdaniel, the original author of the Pokemon G/S Development Reconstruction article on DigitalZero Domain - my website - which is linked to here. As several parts of this article here were rewritten, i'm not exactly sure if my appearance etc. here is of any importance anymore but i'd still like to express my view on this. The user Celebi23 here and me are definatly not the same person, whoever that was pretty much just copy'n'pasted my article in here without permission. I had no idea about this until I came across this article (and this Wiki in general) via the German PokeWiki. I don't really know much about how Wikis work, but while, as I already stated, parts of the article here were already rewritten, enhanced, etc., i'd still like to ask if someone of you could rewrite it a bit further - things like the structuring by years or the 1997 Pokemon 2 section - and change the link to my article to point to my (German language btw) website with a note about my article (or something similar). I hope you understand my point and opinion. - xdaniel on April 11th, 2006 at ~14:23 (local German time)

You can do that yourself - that's the main feature of a wiki. Unfortunately, I don't understand German, neither do most of the people here. - 振霖_T 14:24, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Categorization

I thought I'd catergorize this page, but I'm not sure where to put it. Should it go in Games or Meta? Personally I think Meta but if anyone else has an opinion Ill be glad to hear it

Why not both. You can give an article as many categories as you want. (But don't overdo it.) - 振霖_T 03:40, 24 November 2005 (CST)

The pics at the bottom...

Why're they there? Do they really say anything about Route 46 and the National Park? TTEchidna 05:33, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Links

One of the links, when I clicked on it, it said that it was suspected of containing malware. Does it? And if it does, we should remove it. TorchicBlaziken ^{(talk•edits)} 23:32, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

It would really help if you gave the link. The Dark Fiddler - Nos hablamos? 23:33, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Something i noticed

Probably not that important, but neat nonetheless. In this picture, behind the gold kanji, the red block looks kinda like an angled number 2. I guess that screen was from before they removed the number from the game's title. Morgil27 04:03, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Yea, that's when it was known as Pocket Monsters 2 I believe. I think it is mentioned.--Midnight Blue 04:05, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

New beta map

It's from here (starts at about the 2min mark) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4de7uwhoOyY

What would this be categorized under?--immewnitythemew 14:10, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Wow. It's in Polish. --Maxim 14:45, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Here's a recreation of that map: [1] The white fence is the same, but the trees are still the beta ones. --Jurgen200 09:27, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Silent Hills

Do we have proof that this was the beta name of the starting town? Because this would be interesting trivia to put on New Bark Town's page, especially considering the Silent Hill horror series.--PhantomJunkie 21:52, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

It wasn't the beta name of New Bark. It was a completely different starting town.--immewnitythemew 15:45, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Preoder issues?

This is something that's been bugging me for some time.

I heard there was issues with the first release of games, specifically those sent to people who pre-ordered Pocket Monsters Gold/Silver in Japan; it was a version with the gender option still implemented, but ended up crashing after the gender was chosen. I heard this back on a few websites during the day, and wanted to know the status of this; after all, this is Pokemon, who knows what rumors may've flown about it.

I can say I would trust one of the sites I've heard it from, but it's been so long (10 years!) that I no longer remember it or know if it exists anymore. Lass 01:53, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Missing Daughter and the Glitch City Ghost

I recently found out about this after finding out about an NPC in the GSC version of Glitch City. She's black and white(almost looking like a ghost) and when she "sees" you the Burned Tower music plays. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFHjaRR6XD0

That sidequest could have been a lot darker than the SS Aqua one. Sukid 02:26, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Beta Qwilfish/Chikorita/Marril sprites?

According to this, there were beta sprites of those three Pokemon left in the coding of Gold and Silver. Do these actually exist, and if they do can they be added to the article? Yamiidenryuu 03:43, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Pocket Monsters GS Demo Data Link

I found this link while surfing the internet and I will say it is very informative. I do believe it should be in the Links section, however, I want you guys to look and decide: http://web.me.com/celebi23/Spaceworld_97_Pokemon/Combined_Demo_Info.html

Yes, I do agree with your opinion that some info should be on this article. If we do this, the part that says you're automatically named "Ash Ketchum" should be made to the name being automatically changed to Satoshi because this was in Japan and the U.S. counterpart to Satoshi is Ash Ketchum. So, really, it was probably automatically named Satoshi. JacobTheDoduo 01:50, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

More beta material

Old Pokemon fansites from the time period have a greater collection of screenshots than is featured here, and more and more are turning up: Much higher resolution of original starting town from Super Game Boy era: [2] Beta Slowpoke Well entrance from Super Game Boy era: [3] Pokemon party screen, showing an egg but no genders: [4] Clefairy Pokedex, with beta numbered footprint: [5] Beta berry tree design: [6] (final pic for comparison: [7]) Beta Poke Mart: [8] National Park entrance, more simplistic fence sprites and no bin: [9] Pre-release screenshots of routes and caves etc: [10] [11] [12] [13]

Four pages of beta information are still online at Nintendo.co.jp: [14] (Mirror of that site just in case: [15]) --Jurgen200 08:52, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

The second pic, the one with the Beta Slowpoke Well, gives a 404 error. Could you please re-upload it? Also, do you remember the websites you found those pics on? - Ericss 10:56, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Olivine Beta Map???

I'm sorry, but this looks kinda fake to me. Despite it being a beta map, the other maps are complete, but this on has a black tile with nothing and a house with random inaccessible headbutt trees on it. It just doesn't look real to me. JacobTheDoduo 03:31, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

That's because the original tilesets these maps used were removed or damaged beyond repair, so the maps are essentially being shown with the final version's tilesets. Hence why many elements do not show up correctly. --Dorsal Axe 17:49, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Alright, thanks. JacobTheDoduo 06:46, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

More Beta Material again!

Someone at Bulbapedia pages has found another beta material again:

http://bmgf.bulbagarden.net/f226/beta-pok%C3%A9mon-sprite-into-pok%C3%A9mon-g-s-c-beta-casino-136155/#post4190263 <--- Pokémon Gold and Silver Beta Casinò

http://bmgf.bulbagarden.net/f226/new-important-information-found-about-pok%C3%A9mon-gold-silver-2-alpha-135833/ <--- Two new map about Pokémon Gold and Silver Alpha

New beta screenshots

This apparent beta casino and these two other shots were just added to the page. They should be added to the gallery with the other beta screenshots if they're worth keeping. I'd do it myself, but apparently I can't upload pictures. Yamiidenryuu (talk) 14:19, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

... Wait, I just noticed the above post. Disregard this, I guess. Yamiidenryuu (talk) 14:24, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Clearer beta images

I found this today, it appears to be a Japanese magazine scan with clearer images of what we have here. New Scan Dehry (talk) 01:41, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Glitch Dimension

If you look at the Glitch dimension page, you see this during the glitch:

Ho-Oh showing its true colors, in a "clean" Glitch Dimension.

I presume that this exists in the coding in the game but not used in the final version (i.e. beta) Wowy (talk) 06:08, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Beta content

I found some screenshots on IGN and on Unseen64 that might be useful to show more beta content on the page's screenshots section. Some pictures are large.

Beta screenshots

--Totodile101 (talk) 18:06, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

We can't steal content from other websites. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 18:37, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

At least get them from the actual source, which is the Japanese Nintendo page for Gold and Silver. SatoMew 23:07, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Probably beta art concept book

Hi Guys, today searching on ebay i found an art book of pocket monsters 2. Take a look. I think that the art book could be a great discovery for details of beta concepts. [16] - unsigned comment from ‎Xtr3m one (talk • contribs)

Beta Safari Zone

Here's some beta gameplay showing someone going into the Safari Zone and encountering level 20-wise Pokemon. This suggests you were supposed to start at Kanto and travel to Johto (like TPP Anniversary Crystal). It also shows beta sprites for Pokemon like Porygon2, Butterfree, and Mankey, among others, which are in a colored RGBY style rather than the final GSC sprites. It shows beta maps, and TONS of info. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMBRA0z-Z8Q - unsigned comment from Gs22033 (talk • contribs)

Pokémon Gold SpaceWorld Demo Leak

Should we add the info of the leaked demo, or will the demo get a page? --Prog rocker (talk) 00:37, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

We don't know if it is legitimate. It could be a hoax to keep the nostalgia train from the recent pre-RG reveals.--ForceFire 05:43, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

If this is a hoax, It's the most elaborate one i've ever seen, And i highly doubt TCRF would risk their reputation by hosting a fake beta of a game. Bearfan121 (talk) 17:12, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

So, I guess this means wait and see. --Prog rocker (talk) 19:05, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Let's grant that TCRF wouldn't deliberately host something fake... They could still be hosting something they think isn't fake, only to later discover that it actually is.

Just because they've hosted it doesn't mean it's 100% authentic. So yeah, we can at least give it more than a couple days to see how it plays out. Tiddlywinks (talk) 19:14, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

This is approaching the same level of pathetic as when Bulbapedia refused to acknowledge Eternal Flower Floette as real even when multiple people hacked the retail versions of XY to find it with video evidence. It's about as real as anything's ever going to get, and the suggestion that this is a hoax with overwhelming evidence to the contrary is downright embarrassing. How long will Bulbapedia keep its head firmly buried in the sand this time? Did you even do any research before forming your opinion? Fishman (talk) 23:35, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Dude, calm down. They will post it in due time. I'm sure of it. --Prog rocker (talk) 23:40, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Protip! Instead of accusing us of just not doing research, maybe suggest some things we may not have seen?

Fact is, we do understand that it looks pretty authentic. (We absolutely do try to be diligent. Just, that doesn't always mean we'll reach the conclusion you want.) We still prefer to wait for a while, since it is still an anonymous leak. Tiddlywinks (talk) 01:44, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

My problem is, The only way i see it being absolutely 100% confirmed real is if Nintendo admits it's real (Unlikely) or starts issuing takedown notices, I can't see any other way it can be proven real beyond a shadow of a doubt. Bearfan121 (talk) 03:16, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

(resetting indent)Just have to wait it out for now and be patient. We do need to recall that it is unknown to everyone who even dumped or discovered the rom in the first place and that in the past a representative sold a debug version of Pokemon Ruby to a debug / beta collector. Should be interesting to see what happens from here. :) Frozen Fennec 03:22, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Occam's Razor suggests to me that it's more likely that it's a legit Beta versus an elaborate ROM hack. I totally understand Fishman's frustration because Bulbapedia has a history of being late to the party with info, but I also understand Bulbapedia's desire to ensure that it's authentic and not jump the gun. That said, I'd say at this point it's pretty much obvious it's official, but if Bulbagarden wants to wait until July 1st to start adding info about it, then that's what's gonna happen. -- Nick15 (talk) 22:20, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

I posted this link on the talk page for Prototype Pokémon designs, and since the discussion here seems to be a lot more lively, I thought I would post it here too: [17] I find it very interesting that a small animation used for Hoothoot in the alleged leaked demo was found in the final game... after the supposed demo was leaked. (Just to be clear, I'm not saying that the demo is 100% true for sure, I'm just bringing up potential evidence as a discussion point.) --Celadonkey 23:45, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm just gonna throw this out there as possible evidence against it being legit: One of the supposed beta pokemon is just a straight-up rip off of the mascot for a Japanese doughnut chain. And while there is a rumor that the guy who made that mascot also worked at Game Freak at the time, there isn't really any concrete evidence linking the two. https://legendsoflocalization.com/what-do-japanese-fans-think-of-the-leaked-pokemon-spaceworld-demo/#the-porygon2-surprise Morgil (talk) 01:37, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Could have been a tribute, like Square did with the Chocobo. IIRC it was a reference to the mascot of a Chocolate factory or something like that. Sorry if my initial question brought problems here.--Prog rocker (talk) 02:07, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Interesting... There's too much of a resemblance between potential beta Porygon2 and Pon de Lion for it to be a coincidence. Wow. I can't think of any explanation for that. On one hand, that's such a specific reference for a fake ROM to make, but on the other, if it was real, then why did Pon de Lion not exist until 2003? Very interesting find indeed.

No need to apologize, Prog rocker, I think this is a discussion that is worthy of being had. This, if real, would be one of the biggest pieces of Pokémon history, and if fake, would be one of the most disappointing hoaxes of Pokémon history. --Celadonkey 02:14, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

First time making a comment, so I apologize if I do this incorrectly but- proto Porygon2's resemblance to Pon de Lion should not be considered evidence against the leak as proto Porygon2 also bares a strong resemblance to a LOT of lion-shaped baby toys. Pon de Lion is a cutesy four-legged lion with a donut mane, and proto Porygon2 is a cutesy two-legged lion showing off the graphical upgrade to spheres. Both are just a simplistic lion-based design that anyone could have thought up, so I do think that it can be passed off as coincidence. Yoriven (talk) 05:41, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

@Nick15; The page being protected until July 1st is not a cue for anyone to add the information. That's just an estimated time to see if this gets proven real or fake by that date.--ForceFire 06:22, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

@Force Fire Interestingly, the title screen with the orange and black Ho-Oh sprite does show up in a screenshot at the SpaceWorld '97 off-screen, but it's too far away to make out at first glance, but you can see the orange and black sprite if you zoom in on the image on one ofthe screens, it was posted on the Beta Resetera thread.:

User:Tyler11 (User talk:Tyler11

The guy who first started disassembling Pokemon games has written an article with some evidence that they are real prototypes: https://iimarckus.org/spaceworld/ --Dorsal Axe (talk) 20:26, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

I guess there's a orange and black smudge there? I don't think it's possible to compare it to the 1996 promo nor to the 'leaked' demo.

iimarckus's account proves nothing. The details of the demo could've been read beforehand and the animations and stuff could've been copied and edited from the original Gold/Silver ergo having such similarities. ExLight (talk) 03:34, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

This just in, random Bulbapedia editor knows more about the inner workings of a rom that is neither a Red Version hack or a Gold Version hack than a person responsible for disassemblies. Expert analysis means nothing because jimbob didn't get confirmation from daddy nintendo that the sky is blue. Fishman (talk) 01:45, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Absolutely, any matching details could easily be attributed to the fact that all of this information is public on the Internet, and that any dedicated hoaxer could have copied every detail. However, I think it's worth mentioning that that image did not exist on the Internet until after the demo was leaked, as Google reverse image search shows.

Right now, I think the link that I and Dorsal Axe posted is the best piece of evidence that we have so far. Hopefully more is revealed through time. --Celadonkey 03:39, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

The image above? The Black and orange sprite is pretty much unrecognizable. This ain't exactly a high-res camera. As I said, we can't really see if it is the 1996 prototype sprite (which would prove the leak to be fake) or the one from the leak (which could prove the leak to be true)...

ExLight (talk) 04:05, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

@ExLight I zoomed in to the spot I'm talking about to try to get a better look, and took a screenshot of it to get a better look at the sprite, sorry that it's low-res, hope it looks a little more clearer to you. The '2' is missing from the logo, just like on the ROM.:

http://prntscr.com/jsloxe

And I found this 'gif' on 4chan, someone compared the ROM's 'Route 1' with the image's Route 1.:

I do take the entire ROM with a bucket of salt, but it has been an interesting ride, even though I'm on 'Team Real' currently. I think the 1996 build was an earlier build, though, some of the locations in the ROM were present in magazine scans, such as the town with the tower, which had a window on its doors in the scan, and in the ROM, it's just regular wooden doors. My belief in the ROM is merely just an opinion, you may agree or disagree, even it is a clever fake if proven so in the end. Tyler11 (talk) 16:08, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Very interesting find. Even in that low quality image it's clear that the trees/fences/grass match up.

The one thing that doesn't though, is this blob here:

However, when I checked the actual game to see what goes on there, there's a trainer who wanders around there, and sure enough, he stood in that spot. Seems to check out to me. --Celadonkey 17:41, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

at this point we're in full desperate denial mode, huh? literally every piece of evidence, even stuff people more or less didn't scrutinize at all or completely missed prior to the proto going public is being ignored because "w-well they could have just made it up based on this photo and not the other way around so it doesn't count!!" give it up and get in touch with reality. there is no rational reason to plug your ears and shout at this point, and that's about all it can be characterized as. the earth isn't flat. Fishman (talk) 01:41, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

No need to be so aggressive... Bulbapedia's stance is to wait until concrete evidence surfaces, which is a far cry from "desperate denial mode", and even then they discuss it, which takes time. Be patient. If it is true then it will likely be added to the site within a month or so.

If there is a possibility that the people who leaked the demo "could have just made it up based on this photo" as you say in your portrayal of Bulbapedia, even a slight possibility, then staff will decide not to put it up. That's how it works here, you don't have to like it, but there's not much you can do to change it It really isn't worth insulting other editors over..

I do believe that the ROM is real, but I also appreciate the need to confirm everything 100%. Even if that means, God forbid, we have to wait more than a week or two for information to be put up. --Celadonkey 01:57, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

There will literally never be magical, Nintendo-sourced statements to "100%" confirm that this is real. Expecting that is stupid. At this point, trying to claim that this romhack with hundreds of completely original sprites that anyone with functioning eyes can tell are a bridge between the first and second generation art styles (particularly with gen 1 pokemon) is fake makes about as much sense as claiming that anything we treated as fact before the Spaceworld Proto leaked is fake. There's plenty on this very article that's unsourced that I could just as easily claim are fake just because I don't like them. After all, photoshop exists so anything that doesn't get a press release confirming the legitimacy of is fake. Videos are fake too. Entire games are fake. Reality is fake. Fishman (talk) 02:11, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Nobody is saying that these leaks are 100% fake. We're just saying we're not 100% sure yet. Yes Occam's razor says the leak is real but until hard concrete evidence comes out that are undisprovable without any doubt then we can't say it's 100% real yet. There isn't yet that has come out, so therefore, we can't put it up yet. Anyways, saying that we can't undoubtedly prove the veracity of these leaks (which != saying they're fake) is a whole nother world from saying that videos, entire games, and reality is fake, so I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with that.

If you want to help prove these leaks real so they do get onto the wiki officially, then you should probably be a bit less harsh, chill out a bit, and help out with us instead. And again, it's only been a little more than a week, expecting something this huge to be up so quickly is asking for a little much. --Celadonkey 02:29, 9 June 2018 (UTC)