Talk:Lyra (game)

I rendered the scan of Soul (I guess that's what we're all calling her now) if you want to use it...

The top of her head's cut off. Can you fix that? TTEchidna 01:35, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Um....shouldn't we wait until a REAL source gives her name? Or has one been given? --HoennMaster 03:48, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

There was a poll, and it is mentioned that there is no official name yet, and this is a fanname. — THE TROM — 03:54, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I can't do anything about the hat because it was like that in the scan. It went off the page. (Sorry, I'm new to this wiki stuff, so I don't know how to do a lot...)

How about this one, or should we just wait for the official individual art from Ken Sugimori to be released.--AOS 20:34, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

If you click through to the archives from the image's page, you'll notice that it's already been updated to the official art, taken from the HG/SS official site. There's just something up with the way images are being shown on the 'pedia. TheChrisD ^{Rants•Edits} 21:35, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Name

According to the screen revealed in CoroCoro and Famitsu, Soul seems to be the boy's name... --Maxim 07:07, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Sigh. You know as well as I do that "Leaf" is among the optional names for Red in LeafGreen, too, don't you? TTEchidna 07:28, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Well. I know that it doesn't indicate anything. But I noted it here to show that the assumption that her name will be "Soul" is nothing more than gunjumping. --Maxim 07:30, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Either way, we needed a name for her page and we couldn't really name her "That girl who replaced Kris causing all the fans to whine (game)". TTEchidna 07:34, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I really think for the time being we should call her the "Un-named female trainer", or something like that. Besides, we can't assume her name based on what one generation did.Zabbethx 15:16, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

The name is pretty much a place-holder (no user is going to be willing to search something like "Un-named female trainer" just to find the this article) at this point, which is why it is clearly tagged in the article to avoid confusion. And if the precedent from gen III holds, the article will have already had its proper name, and if not, it can very easily be corrected. Trainer-c 15:25, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Check this if you don't mind since I gave my opinion as well as a few facts (at least one XD). Pokemon lover 15:51, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

I knew it! her name was going to be Soul just like I predicted in Kris's Talk Page. AlienX2008 17:52, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually we don't know for a fact yet AlienX2008. While there is a 99% chance of her name being Soul (which I am starting to think is her name as opposed to Heart which I previously thought), there is no official word yet. Right now Soul is just her fan-name.Zabbethx 18:49, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Is it Heart? I heard that according to those scans that the Pokemon website has,it has the Gold character with the default name "Soul"? Lovely Rose 22:56, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Personally, i hope its Heart. But i'd be ok with Soul. - unsigned comment from Golden (talk • contribs)

I personally think this article should be called "Female character (Heart Gold/Soul Silver)" since we don't know her name yet.It's best we avoid misinformation until more is revealed. - seriousexpression

There would be no point in having an article then. Although I think it is jumping the gun as well, the article does say that it is a fan-made name. --HoennMaster 00:35, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

This article may be jumping the gun slightly, maybe, but truly, I'd rather have done it now just in case some dork comes along and wonders where she is. TTEchidna 00:28, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

We can always change it later.--Clarky13 00:48, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

I've seen her called Mariko on the Japanese site Pixiv. I haven't heard it anywhere else; is this another fan nickname, or is it official? --Lime 21:42, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Might be one of the default names. TTEchidna 04:47, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Isn't the female referred to as like Haato and the male referred to as Souru? ~*~ Erik Destler ~*~ 22:48, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

New screenshot

Can someone translate what she is saying in the new screenshot, please? This may give us some kind of information about her... Mr. Charlie(TalkToMe) 20:51, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

This one? -MasterKenobi 20:58, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes. I've tried to translate it, but realized soon enough that translating anything that does not use our alphabet is not for me. I got "Steer!". Please. Mr. Charlie(TalkToMe) 21:01, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

According to the gallery on HeartGold and SoulSilver it reads "Yeah! How about you show your mom, too?" TheChrisD ^{Rants•Edits} 21:09, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

About Soul...

I know this is simply speculation,but Soul looks a lot like that girl that replaces Red if you insert a Crystal cart. with Kris into the game,right? Okay,maybe not a lot but still..Leaf is obviously based off that girl playable character that was left out of the first generation,right? Maybe Soul is based off this girl? If so,could we put it in the article? Lovely Rose 20:54, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

A. This comparison is an opinion, and B. No, because it's an opinion it cannot go into the article. -Sketch 20:57, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh,okay,just making sure. Lovely Rose 20:58, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Sketch: If that's so, then why is the following paragraph in the article:

"Due to her similar hair, it is believed by some fans that she is to Kris what Leaf is to Blue: a vastly redesigned version of her. As Kris's Special counterpart Crystal likewise had brown hair initially (though it was changed to blue to match her counterparts of Kris and Marina), and currently has brown hair again." -Spideym 21:55, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Ask the Echidna. He put it in. --エルレイド 21:57, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

If anything, Stadium Boy and Stadium Girl are just that. Stadium people. Because this was before they identified your game as your game through the Trainer's appearance. Plus, since RGBY are playable with Stadium 2, it'd look really odd to see Red face... himself. TTEchidna 04:49, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

SERIOUS BUSINESS

I just read one of the scans's captions on the Pokémon HeartGold and SoulSilver Versionspage. It said:

'Inside Professor Elm's laboratory. "Oh, Soul! I've been waiting for you to come!"

Does this mean the name is now set in stone? I don't want to edit it straight away incase this isn't the case. - Lucadan (talk • contribs) 15:42, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

New stuff goes at the bottom. Also, look at that picture. Elm is talking to GOLD, not this new girl that no one cares about. --エルレイド 20:21, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Most likely, "Soul" is a default name for Gold, like how "Diamond" and "Pearl" are default names for Lucas. ~ solaris 20:30, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. --エルレイド 20:46, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

So, why not change the article to Heart? ~*~ Erik Destler ~*~ 22:49, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

That will likely be a default name for both in HeartGold, just like Soul will be in SS, just as “Red” was a default for both the boy and the girl in FireRed and “Green” for both in LeafGreen. --LaprasBoi 13:11, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Final proof

Eusine in HGSS. Means Crystal stuff is there. Means Soul is Kris. Yes or yes? TTEchidna 19:27, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Hmm... Let's do it. --エルレイド 19:35, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I think we should wait for CoroCoro to come out before making any decisions just yet.--RexRacer 19:44, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Three days? Good for me. TTEchidna 19:44, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Waiting for concrete proof would be ideal. If it explicitly mentions that it's Kris, then go for it. Otherwise... well isn't that a lot of speculation that we can enjoy ;) TheChrisD ^{Rants•Edits} 19:51, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

What does Eusine have to do with anything? Just because he's from Crystal doesn't mean that everything else is. They could just be simply putting some events from Crystal into this game. Chris is right. Wait for concrete proof. --ケンジのガール 20:10, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

The main argument in the past was that this girl must be a new character because HeartGold and SoulSilver are not remakes of Crystal, so anything that was in Crystal can't be in HG/SS. Now that that argument has been put to rest, there's really no reason left to believe she isn't Kris. At the very least, a merge would solve the problem that this page is located at an unofficial title.-Jeff^(talk) 20:56, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

...No reason? How about the fact that Soul looks NOTHING like Kris, unlike the other redesigned characters? Or the fact that that her clothes DON'T look like they're based on Kris' ones, unlike the other player characters' outfits? Or the fact that she would be the only player character whose hair color was changed to a totally different one in a remake (Red had brown hair in Pokémon Stadium 2, so no, FR/LG didn't change his hair from black to brown), and even compared to the few characters who had a hair color change (Lance and Lorelei), the change between from Kris' and Soul's hair color is too drastic (Lance and Lorelei's new hair colors [reddish pink and red respectively] could be obtained by changing the tonality of the original ones [reddish orange and purple], but you can't get Soul's hair color [brown] by changing the tonality of Kris' [blue])? - Pokéman 21:34, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Kris's hair color was originally dark brown before they changed it to fit with the "Crystal" theme. ~ solaris 21:39, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

When did game Kris have brown hair? - Pokéman 21:41, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

The manga. --ケンジのガール 22:19, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Which should be irrelevant because Special Crystal is based on game Kris, and not the other way around. - Pokéman 22:25, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

However, she did still have Brown hair...--^Psychic_Rider^☮ 22:32, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, there was something about a prototype female character similar to Kris that had brown hair, but I haven't found a picture so far x.x ~ solaris 22:35, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

PsychicRider: And anime Bill had green hair. So?

Sol: You mean the "prototypical" artwork that was revealed years before Gold and Silver came out?:

- Pokéman 22:43, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Bill has nothing to do with this...He may or may not be getting new artwork...--^Psychic_Rider^☮ 23:08, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Neither have Pokémon Special or Special Crystal. The manga has even less influence in the games than the anime. - Pokéman 23:13, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

You can't even keep your point. Special Crys did get a change...She had brown that switched to blue...Oh, kinda like this, but reversed...hm...--^Psychic_Rider^☮ 23:19, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

"You can't even keep your point." < What? - Pokéman 23:27, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Guys, how much like Red did Red look? TTEchidna 23:20, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

A lot. Both original and FRLG Red have brown spiky hair, red-and-white jacket and cap, black shirt, blue pants... - Pokéman 23:27, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Just wanted to say, I support the merge, for what that's worth. --((Marton imos)) 00:33, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

The whole thing with PokéSpe Crystal's Blue/Brown hair aside, I'm going to side with Chris and Kenji-girl and suggest waiting until we at least get more concrete evidence pertaining specifically to this character -- such as sharing default names, a mention on Masuda's blog (or preferably Sugimori's with some early concept art, just to see that blog updated more than once a year), etc. -- before accepting that Kris and Soul are the same character.

Not even Leaf's design is changed as drastically from the prototype RGB girl -- Leaf and RBG girl both have long brown hair, a mini-skirt, and no sleeves -- as Soul is from Kris. Quagbert 02:41, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

we already jumped the gun by making this page, so we might as well keep it until everything is 100% confirmed. I don't see how Crystal stuff being in these remakes automatically makes Soul Kris. What is so bad about waiting. And just throwing this in, but how about in the future we actually wait instead of having to go through this again. --HoennMaster 02:13, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Waiting would mean someone comes along and makes an article at "NOO GURL (Hartgald/soulver)" that's an absolute mess. And considering the fandom's whining about "SHE'S NOT KRIS" and all that bullcrap... TTEchidna 17:29, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

She's not Kris. EoT. I don't see how Eusine has anything to do with that. --Maxim 17:34, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

What evidence is there that she's not Kris, aside from their appearances? We've come up with evidence to indicate she is, the appearance of Crystal elements and her appearing with Eusine in a picture being a few. --((Marton imos)) 00:06, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

It's not any evidence. It's just a failed comparative logic. Come on, we didn't even believe CONFIRMED dub title when it revealed Barry's name. We didn't move his page until the airing of the episode. So, why are we supposed to believe some failed logic? Because the main 'Pedia admin is supporter of the "Soul is Kris" theory? It is NOT an evidence. As long as it's not blatantly stated that she is design-raped Kris after a nuclear explosion, we should not believe any failed "evidences" like that. --Maxim 08:41, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

I just want to say that I oppose the merge. They are obviously different people, and like said above, if you do merge them people will be saying "WTH! SOUL ISNT KRIS" and making fail pages named "new gil(hgss)" --Blake 13:46, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

An evidence? Sheez. Anyway, Maxim, I'm still not seeing any logic coming from you, aside from "they look different." Well, you also had "Not a Crystal remake," but that's obviously no longer the case. We've got "They don't look that different," "They fill the same role in-game," "Kris appears in a shot with Eusine," "Other characters have undergone drastic visual changes," etc.

Please, if you have an argument, present it. It doesn't seem like you're using any logic, and I'd love for that to change. --((Marton imos)) 17:22, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

We have no proof that Soul is Kris, or even that Kris wont even be a character. She might pop up somewhere else, like Blue being a Gym Leader. --Blake 19:23, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

We also have no proof that Soul is NOT Kris. Blue popped up as Gym Leader 3 years after he began his journey. This is back at the beginning of Gold/Kris's journey. --エルレイド 19:27, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Both sides of the argument piss off the other side, so maybe we should leave this as is for now. We have no evidence to support either side, and all that is happening now are insults on how the other side isn't right. So just drop the subject for now, and we will pick it up once something in the Pokémon world actually happens. ^Maverick_Nate 19:34, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Does it really matter if she is Kris or not. At least they are remaking G/S. That's what matters. I would love to have Kris back. Soul and Kris have similarities. They probably did that on purpose. To make her look similar to Kris. So until she is confirmed to be Kris, if she is her, i say no merger yet.--Pokéboy93 04:58, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

I say no to any merger at this point. There is strong evidence in favour of her being Kris, however it is nowhere near confirmed. I say we leave it as it is for the moment, otherwise, the situation could arise where we merge the pages, and then have the messy job of unmerging them, and removing all the Soul stuff from Kris's page. Surely you guys can wait til September 12th to merge the page, just to make sure your doing it when it is confirmed, and not another instance where Bulbapedia jumps the gun.

But I have a question, what will be the proof for either side, when the game comes out, if Kris isn't her name, when she is the NPC, will that confirm she's not Kris, equally if Kris is in her optional names, will that confirm she is Kris? Max King 14:17, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I believe it's what her NPC "helper" name is, what will determine who she is. Be it Kris, Soul or something totally different. TheChrisD ^{Rants•Edits} 18:34, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

@ Max King: No, it wouldn't prove a damned thing. If you'll recall, the player character from Diamond and Pearl have Ash/Satoshi or Gary/Shigeru amongst their default names, but that most certainly does not make them Red or Green. Player-Character Girl should use this name for now, since the mob of fanon has spoken. It'll be changed later whether they like it or not. Fishman 13:44, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

If I may add my opinion into this, I don't believe for a second they are the same and oppose the merge. In FireRed/LeafGreen, Red and Leaf were recognisable as who they were meant to be (albeit Leaf never appeared in the original, but there WAS beta artwork of her); Red still had a red jacket, red hat, blue pants; and Leaf still had the boots and same hairstyle. On the other hand, Soul resembles Kris in no way, shape, or form beyond the hair, and even then...I don't see the hair similarities beyond pigtails. Alongside that, if Soul WAS Kris, why would she look so utterly different if Gold and Silver are easily recognizable? It just doesn't make sense. Reign 09:19, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Given her weird hair similar to the original Kris’s, and her appearance alongside Eusine in that Burned Tower/Legendary Beasts artwork, I am inclined to agree with TTE that she seems to be mainly a heavy redesign Kris/Crystal, and she will definitely be named the latter when I play her in SoulSilver( now that I feel pretty sure HG/SS will be thirdversionless like FR/LG). But there is something to be said for putting her at her NPC name, unless she is nameable as an NPC, in which case I say merge to Kris for sure. The REAL question we should be asking is what we do with Gold if his NPC name is nothing like “Gold”. --LaprasBoi 13:11, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Eusine's design hardly changed from his Crystal art, at all. The only thing that stands out as "major" is the designs on his suit. Everything else is basically the same (unless you consider adding lines to his hair a major addition, or that his one bang flipped sides). Luna Tiger * the Arc Toraph 13:41, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I think I said that badly. Wasn’t saying Eusine looks weird. Should be more clear now. --LaprasBoi 14:41, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

To answer your question, if Gold gets a new NPC name, then the obvious solution is to create a new article for him with regards to HG/SS, and leave Gold (game) solely for any and all details with regards to G/S/C.

But, this has nothing to do with improvement to Soul's article, so back to point, or continue the discussion somewhere else? TheChrisD ^{Rants•Edits} 15:51, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I didn’t mean to start a tangent on it here, just honestly think it’s a more pertinent question than this one. But not one that needs addressing just yet... kinda like this. --LaprasBoi 16:19, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Hey look, a section break!

Strange as it may sound, I agree with Mav. Neither side is really gaining any ground here, so we should all just call her what we want to call her, be it "Soul," "Kris," "Maria," etc, and stop yelling at people who don't agree. And it's not like Bulbapedia defines reality. --((Marton imos)) 08:39, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

But both sides should agree that the name "Soul" for the girl is practically denied. All screens confirm "Heart" as a version name for the girl and the page should be moved. --Maxim 08:41, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

While I think she's clearly just supposed to be Crys's equivalent, and Crys in the Special manga will thus have her outfit when she reappears, if the article really MUST use a name to refer to this "new" girl, why the hell is Soul used? The ONLY names that have been seen for her are Heart and Miki, while the MALE character has only been seen with the names Soul and Hiroshi. (Miki and Hiroshi only being used in a wireless battle for the second versions of them.) If there's a name used for her, it should be Heart for now. Capsule Computer 00:42, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Soul is mainly used because the FRLG girl was Leaf. Therefore, it's only logical that she'd be named Soul, following Leaf's pattern of being named after the first word in the second game. I say we keep it as Soul until the game comes out, where if it turns out she's Heart we change it then. Reign 01:37, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

How can this be logical when screens say otherwise? :/ ~*~ Erik Destler ~*~ 22:52, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Except to me, it's only logical that she's just the new version of Crys, regardless of what you wanna call her, or what she's called when she's an NPC. (I'm betting the boy won't be named "Gold" when he's an NPC, but he doesn't have a separate page from the G/S/C versions' boy. Odds are very likely that the boy and girl will get 'real' names just like gen 3 and 4 gave them.) Bottom line is that "Soul" has never been used in any way for her; it's nothing but speculation, and thus it should not be presented as such on an encyclopedia. Capsule Computer 02:10, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

That's why we have the template... ^ht14 02:30, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

If you mean the "has no official name", that doesn't change the fact she's referred to as Soul throughout the article, which has lead to everyone annoyingly calling her as such like it's official. The most ridiculous thing is that the Japanese equivalent is there; seriously, what the hell? She should either not be referred to with any name or be called by a name that she's actually been seen having in-game, Heart. Not to mention it should be written in a way that explains where her names come from, rather than misleadingly-worded statements like "Soul is the female player character..." Capsule Computer 02:45, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps the best way to approach this for now is to give the article a more neutral point of view with respect to the Kris/Soul debate. Also, I've stated several times on BMGf why I think using the default names isn't an indicator of this girl's identity. Default names have changed from game to game, see Gold (game). Chances are, she'll have a new default name in HG/SS, but then again, so will Gold. The best evidence I can think of is to look at the anime and manga. If this girl is introduced as a separate character in those media, we can assume she's a new character in the games, if Crystal and Marina just end up getting new looks, then it's safe to say that this girl is Kris.-Jeff^(talk) 15:34, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

@ Eric Destler: Screens tell us which names the people who took the screens are using, not which names are default. As others have pointed out, we've seen screens with a number of names for the characters in Diamond, Pearl, and Platinum, and none of them were the names we wound up using for the characters. --((Marton imos)) 23:55, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Guys Kris is Soul. Give me one good reason why Kris isn't Soul.- unsigned comment from Pokemon1234567890 (talk • contribs)

Because she broke Strong Bad's rule about Japanese cartoons. TTEchidna 07:51, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Why cant you all just wait 40 days until the games come out and we can finally have the answer? Soul is an unofficial name. and think about it. Green/Leaf diddnt appear in Red/Blue/Yellow other then that picture in the guidebook. Even then, she was portrayed by her Manga counterpart. In the remakes she got a new look, and was basically a new character. --Blake 18:04, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, neither side of this argument has any real evidence to support its opinion. At this point, all anyone knows is that there's a female playable character in this game. Some people look at the design and see a radical redesign of Kris; others think it's a new character. The art is the only grounds anyone has for forming an opinion, and this page has certainly proved that that's not a good enough basis for making a decision. Since we've seen that the pre-release screenshots have a history of giving the characters different names from their "real" ones, the text boxes referring to her as "Heart" aren't any help either. In lieu of any new information either way, it would seem most reasonable to me to leave this page as it is until we know more. After all, if this is a redesign of Kris, I don't think anyone can disagree that it has succeeded in making her look like a new character, at least moreso than any previous redesign. We don't have any concrete information, so there's really nothing to do but wait. Bickering over whether Kris and "Soul's" hairstyles match obviously isn't going to get us anywhere. Actually, with the ridiculously fierce debate this trivial issue has inspired, I can only hope the girl ends up being named "Cindy." Kyunji 04:54, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Kyunji is right you know! Let's just STOP! It's really annoying! Let's just WAIT! Gees! Why does NO ONE listens!?

Signed, --The Bulb's Master 18:09, 3 August 2009 (UTC) Master of Bulbasaur and the Turtwig♀

Wait for what exactly? Nintendo to hold a press conference revealing this girl's identity? It's not going to happen, and no matter what evidence we get, this debate will continue to exist. I'm hoping that we can get some resolution when we find out how the Manga and possibly Anime handle this but I'm not holding my breath. The only thing that is known for now is that some people view her as an updated Kris, and some people view her as a new character. Currently, there are still articles, such as Kris (game) which refer to "Soul" as a new character. These need to be fixed to be more neutral with respect to the debate. Also, to fix this article, how about merging it with Kris's article, but giving the HG/SS girl her own section along with some background on the Kris/Soul debate?-Jeff^(talk) 17:21, 4 August 2009 (UTC)