Talk:Cyllene

Cyrus

"She is an ancestor of Cyrus, the leader of Team Galactic of the modern day."

"Dialogue between her and Kamado features Cyllene, upon hearing that Galaxy Team may disband in the future, vowing to pass down its name and accomplishments to her descendants. This confirms that Cyllene is related to the leader of modern day Team Galactic, Cyrus."

I disagree that this is confirmation. It suggests it, which I think is okay to point out, but we should not act like this is 100% confirmation. In all likelihood, that is GameFreak's intention, but it's still speculation, and we shouldn't pass off speculation as fact. Landfish7 07:25, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

very much agree with this. Realistically, it’s pretty clear all the “look alike” characters are intended to be ancestors. But just because someone looks the same doesn’t mean they’re related, we have to go in with this with the idea that they’re unrelated unless they say so. This bit of dialogue only suggests that Cyllene intends to pass down the information to her or other members’ children. We don’t really even know if she actually gets descendants and if she does, we don’t know who they are. Assuming she’s related to Cyrus falls into speculation.TrainerSplash (talk) 10:37, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

I read the speculation policy, and it does NOT say «No speculation or inferences, basta.» The nutshell sign says: «Avoid speculation on Bulbapedia; making inferences should be limited». The page defines speculation as any rumor, presumption, or unconfirmed fact edited into the wiki by a user without a reliable source or citation to back up the claim. Based on the policy page, the most we can do is expressing doubt, but not to the same extent as Lian for instance.--MissDelibirda (talk) 12:34, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

I'm actually sick of seeing "X bears a striking resemblance to Y, but the relationship between the two, if any, is unknown." on almost every LA-related character article, which I find to be trivial and redundant. And in Volo's case, as shown by the trivia section on his article, the game makes it extremely clear that he is Cynthia's ancestor without explicitly stating it. - unsigned comment from Inkster (talk • contribs)

But I agree with Cyllene here, that fialogue doesn't confirm anything.Inkster (talk) 13:25, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

I didn't say no speculation was allowed. The problem is that the quote given is entirely based on assumption. There's nothing here that implies both Galaxy Team and and Team Galactic are related at all side from symbols and name, and there's nothing that implies Cyllene is related to Cyrus, just that she is thinking about having descendants. Resemblance is uncanny, and it's pretty clear that they were intended to be parallels, but that doesn't suggest anything other than that. There's no "confirmation" here, it's all assumption, and the citation should at least remove that bit and say it's based on assumption. TrainerSplash (talk) 22:05, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Bumping this. So far, the consensus appears to be against referring to Cyrus as Cyllene's confirmed ancestor. Landfish7 01:32, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes, she isn't 100% confirmed to be Cyrus' ancestor, but along with confirming that Kamado is Professor Rowan's ancestor, the offical website also states that "there are other people in this game who might also be ancestors to familiar faces you may know." Given that piece of information, I think it might be better to say that she APPEARS to be an ancestor of Cyrus instead of saying she IS. I'm only making this suggestion because personally, I don't think saying "X bears a striking resemblance to Y, but the relationship between the two, if any, is unknown" is a good idea, and this could also apply to many other characters in Legends: Arceus. Inkster (talk) 20:39, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

I think that information would definitely be worth including. We should link to/reference that and state that it is (heavily) implied that they are related/ancestors. Landfish7 20:54, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

I agree with this, and it would especially apply to Volo, who is also HEAVILY implied to be an ancestor of Cynthia as shown by the similarities between the two. Inkster (talk) 21:06, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Strongly disagree. With Cyllene, it stated more outright, while Volo is «only» implied. Also, the wording of «might be ancestors» varies from language to language. On the French site, it says «it seems like[…]».--MissDelibirda (talk) 06:02, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Uopn doing some translating, the quote from French website translates to "It seems that other characters in the game are also distant relatives of characters you already know.", which ourright confirms all the characters are ancestors. Inkster (talk) 11:00, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

I meant it as an example. I don't reckon we should trust the translated sites too much.--MissDelibirda (talk) 11:14, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

(resetting indent) The bottom line is that there is no outright confirmation that the characters are related, so we shouldn't state it with certainty. However, we also shouldn't pretend like there is no suggestion of a relation at all. Stating "X bears a striking resemblance to Y, but the relationship between the two, if any, is unknown," I feel like gives an incomplete picture given the information we have from the website. I see no reason why the information from the website shouldn't be included, MissDelibirda. I agree that the evidence for Cyllene is stronger than that for Volo, and we can make that distinction in their respective articles, but the fact that a confirmed source strongly supports the ancestral relationship between these characters shouldn't just be ignored. Landfish7 19:14, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Landfish is right. The information that I pointed out shouldn't go ignored, especially when it's from the OFFICIAL website, and I just wanted to clarify that I actually translated a piece of text from the French version of the Legends: Arceus website MissDelibirda. Inkster (talk) 19:23, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

I meant something else, but I struggle with wording. Just, nevermind, it was nothing important anyway.--MissDelibirda (talk) 19:51, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

That was a misinterpretation on my part, MidsDeliberda. But given what both websites say, I for one believe that "X bears a striking resemblance to Y, but the relationship between the two, if any, is unknown" should be replaced and the information from the official website be provided on the characters' articles as a source. Inkster (talk)

The evidence for/against Volo, Arezu, and others should be discussed on their own pages before any changes are made to those articles. As for this page, it seems we have a consensus that Cyllene is not 100% confirmed to be an ancestor to Cyrus, however strong the evidence may be. Landfish7 07:56, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

I still don’t agree that the discussion isn’t confirmation, but what we are doing right now works too. Now we just hafta change it on the other pages.--MissDelibirda (talk) 06:45, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

(resetting indent) That sentence on the French website is still not explicit enough to even be a 50/50 confirmation. It's just saying that they may be ancestors of familiar characters, it's not saying that they may be ancestors of a specific one. It's not as explicit as the Kamado/Rowan connection. As such, I've reverted the line back to how it is one other Legends ancestors, as the other purported evidence is also not enough. Cyllene might have descendants, but we can't be certain Cyrus would be one of them.--ForceFire 08:26, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

So you'd rather give an incomplete picture given the information we have from the website and deny all possibilities relationship between the characters? Inkster (talk)

The sentence doesn't even give a complete image in the first place. "It seems characters in this game are distant relative to the ones you know" is still very vague and isn't that explicit. Which characters are they a distant relatives of? That's not a question the website answers. The only one it does answer is Kamado's relation to Rowan.--ForceFire 12:07, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Being vague and uncertain about the ancestry between characters doesn't account for the fact that Volo is heavy implied to be related to Cynthia. Inkster (talk) 12:30, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Volo being implied to be Cynthia's ancestor is already in the trivia section of his article, which is arguably where it belongs.--ForceFire 13:18, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Question: Why does the site confirm Kamado to be an ancestor, and not Cyllene, for instance? The most plausible explanation is that he is simply used as an example, otherwise it would be quite odd. Another thing is that in Japan, character design usually reflects characterization and does not aim for realism. Pokémon has several examples of this. The Akala trail captains and the Sitraton Gym leaders all have character designs evoking their type specialty, and Hala and Alder looking quite like their grandsons, Hau and Benga, respectively. Also, while is possible, in theory, that Arezu for instance, isn’t an ancestor to Mars, there is no hints for that, and given their similarities, we would need some solid evidence for her not being an ancestor. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Finally, her being an ancestor explains why she has those similarities as Game Freak is trying to imply something, but any ad hoc claims asserting she isn’t would not useful for anything.--MissDelibirda (talk) 15:49, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that GAME FREAK is clearly trying to imply some sort of connection between the two. And given what you said ForceFire, it would seem unecessary and odd to say that Volo "bears a striking resemblance to Cynthia, but the relationship between the two, if any, is unknown" as that and the Trivia section appear to contradict one another. Inkster (talk) 19:01, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Can we at least add to characters like Clay in their infobox family section "Relatives: Lian (possible ancestor)^[1]"?--Rocket Grunt 20:22, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

(resetting indent) Without explicit confirmation, I doubt it. Landfish7 20:32, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

I don't see any reason not to do so. Inkster (talk) 22:11, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

It seems like we're not going to be allowed to say anything beyond "they look similar" without explicit confirmation. I don't necessarily agree but I'm not an admin so. Landfish7 22:14, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

I don't see how having both the line at the top of the article and the trivia contradict each other. The trivia isn't saying he is Cynthia's ancestor nor that there is a relation between the two, just stating the shares some similarities with her, i.e it's expanding on the sentence at the top of the article. I wouldn't mind similar trivia for the other ancestors, but we are not putting it in the infobox nor saying that they might be ancestors of certain characters without the explicit confirmation. We'd rather be absolutely correct rather than having the slight chance of being incorrect.--ForceFire 08:22, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Got it. Landfish7 08:30, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Alright, then.--MissDelibirda (talk) 08:37, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

That's just stupid. Saying something is possible is never wrong when you provide enough evidence, especilly in this case where the game made for children expects you to get it. This is understood by everyone except for Bulbapedia for some reason. It would be a lie to pretend you don't see what the games are implying by not mentioning it, not claiming it as a fact.--Rocket Grunt 09:50, 18 May 2022 (UTC)