Talk:Shuckle (Pokémon)

Berry Juice

Does anyone know if Berry juice can become a rare candy in generation III and IV? i read on another page that an oran berry will become berry juice.- unsigned comment from Kendai (talk • contribs)

-I suppose in regards to this little thing, I must wonder if we should keep the Berry Juice for the later gens up anymore, as it seems no one seems to know how you get it.- unsigned comment from Tsum (talk • contribs)

Power Trick

Shuckle learning Power Trick would make it really powerful atacking, combine that with a powerful move & ... -Theininen 17:24, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

However, it will have the crappest defence ever. TESHIGIGAS 18:03, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Always a drawback. TTEchidna 02:27, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

That's why you only use that trick in a Double Battle. In a Single Battle, you face the problem of Shuckle being one-shotted after it uses Power Trick if you don't do something to cripple the opponent. In a Double Battle, you can have Shuckle use Power Trick while your other Pokémon uses Trick Room; that way, Shuckle won't get slaughtered before it can attack. Diachronos 17:45, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Can someone confirm the damage maximum on that? It says 210,000,000 but my use of the formula shows a maximum damage of 71,298,684 Colbenik 16:24, 13 January 2009

You're missing a lot of factors. Let me list:

• Double Battle
• Item: Metronome (at maximum potential)
• Rollout hit: 5
• Defence curl used for powered up Rollout.
• Maximised Defence (+6 levels) prior to Power Trick.
• Power Trick Active
• Skill Swapped Pure Power/Huge Power
• Critical Hit
• Target defence reduced to 1 with defence down moves used on it (I.E. Screech)
• Helping Hand bonus
• Nature boosts defence
• Variance value at best

With this incredible list of factors, you should get much higher results. Gywall Talk 22:29, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I was actually trying to find highest single battle damage, so maybe I wasn't actually off...I had included all of the factors you listed except for Helping Hand and the Double Battle modifierColbenik 22:43, 13 January 2009

Just some trivia for the trivia: it takes 20 uses of the move for Metronome to get to maximum potential. Smogon also says that Metronome only boosts consecutive selections of the move, meaning it could take as many as 100 turns of using just Rollout to get both Metronome and Rollout to full power. (Statistically, it may be fewer since Rollout may not necessarily reach 5 strikes each use.) — Laoris _(Blah) 06:12, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

It takes from 40~100 turns.. true. As for the maximum for a single battle, it just cuts out a 50% Power boost. The maximum damage in a single battle is 142,597,348. That's factoring out the Helping Hand bonus only obtainable in a double battle. Gywall Talk 10:51, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

When Huge Power is skill swapped, the attack is halved! Why doesn't anyone else know this?!Pyles 17:23, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I've seen that it takes 10 uses of the move for Metronome to get to maximum potential on Smogon, but other sources say it takes 20 turns. Can someone confirm which one is true? And Pure Power bonus isn't affect by Skill Swap. The maximum damage would be 213,896,052 HP.

I can also add that having the ability Flower Gift on the opposing pokemon would also increase the damage.

Old conversation is old, but I'm positive that calculation is wrong. If Metronome only boosts 10 times (which I'm assuming), then you'll get 142,597,348 as many people have. If it boosts by 20 times, you'd get double the value, not 1.5, so someone clearly messed up. However, if you have Flower Gift on a partner Pokemon, it comes out to 213,896,052, so I guess it works out. I'll edit the Trivia with Flower Gift. MagicBarrier 02:52, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

DERP. Well, if Metronome activates 20 times, that IS accurate. Still, I found the link from Smogon that states that a Poke can only get a 100% boost from Metronome. Unless you can give me data to counteract this, I'm still editing it. MagicBarrier 03:18, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Just suggestion, but could someone change this to be accurate for black and white, because now their are triple battles, allowing another 50% more power with another partner Pokémon using "helping hand", making the new max damage 320,844,078 Npk1 01:38, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

I have removed the trivia damage as it is incorrect. Please use Smogon's new B/W Damage Formula article to properly calculate before re-adding. Be sure to use modifiers when appropriate; you cannot have two instances of Helping Hand modifiers. Kaphotics 04:56, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Shuckle and Berries

I think some information must be clarified about Shuckle and Berries(or Oran Berries):

• Exactly how many time it takes for Shuckle to produce Berry Juice? And how is it measured: in steps, in real time, or when Shuckle level up?
• The same as above, for Rare Candy.
• And more important: is this feature still available on further generations? i.e., can Shuckle produce Berry Juice(and Rare Candy) on generations III and IV?

A little aside: I hope so. -- Professional Mole(Talk here) 23:25, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Has anyone actually managed to use a Shuckle to produce Rare Candy? I have tried for a long time with different Shuckle (traded, high leveled, low leveled, high happiness), and all I get is Berry Juice. Jacce 03:56, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Anyone? Jacce 09:02, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

I am 99% sure Shuckle cannot ever create rare candies outside of Gen II The Real Spambot Jones (talk) 00:21, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Damage Trivia

"Although the circumstances would be nearly impossible, a level 100 Shuckle can potentially deal the most damage in one single attack through the use of numerous stat boosters, Metronome held item, Power Trick, a Skill Swap to Huge Power or Pure Power, and the Defense Curl/Rollout combo. On the 5th impact of Rollout, if used against a level 1 Ledyba or Yanma that have been hit with negative Defense modifiers (such as Screech), it can deal over 210,000,000 damage."

Wouldn't a Choice Band Ho-Oh with Huge/Pure Power and a maximum attack stat and attack modifiers do more damage to a Level 1 Dry Skin Paras with negative defence modifiers with an attack such as Sacred Power? Besides the point, it seems like a weird thing to put in trivia. --EmpoleonDynamite 14:19, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

• Agreed. It's highly impractical as well, since that situation is way too hard to reproduce anyway. I do enjoy trivias, but this is just ridiculously specific. -- Professional Mole (Talk here) 02:05, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Ho-Oh max attack is 788 with Pure Power (against 1,228 for a Pure Power and Power Tricked Shuckle) and Sacred Fire power is 100 (960 for a Defense Curled Rollout on the fifth turn). Anyway, maximum damage would be 26,807,962 HP for Ho-Oh, against 213,000,000 for Shuckle. - unsigned comment from EnteiFire (talk • contribs)

Don't know but shouldn't it say that rollout would do over 1,000,000,000 damage? ShinyGlaceon 03:18, 17 February 2010 (UTC) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXiR4uz5znk So, legitimate damage?

This might be considered completely unimportant, but I was wondering if anyone else though the trivia should be reworded to not say "it can deal 213,896,052 damage." Not sure if anyone else cares, but as far as I'm concerned the max damage that attack can deal is 12, and the max damage any attack can deal is 714. Basically what I mean is, is there a better word than "deal" that anyone can think of that refers to hypothetical damage, rather than damage actually done? jas61292 06:26, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Location?

From simple testing in HeartGold, shuckle doesn't seem to be avaliable from boulders in all areas, unless its encounter rate is ridiclously low.

Memory from the original Gold and Silver tells that it was only avaliable from the rocks in cinawood and olivine, can anyone confirm this?- unsigned comment from Parallel (talk • contribs)

Actually you only get it from the Pokemaniac in Cianwood since he fears Silver. ShinyGlaceon 16:03, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

No, you can catch them wild aswell, by Rocksmash. - unsigned comment from Parallel (talk • contribs)

It's only Rocksmash in Vermilion City and Cianwood City. (Yaminokame 17:26, 17 February 2010 (UTC))

shiny artwork

OK, instead of teasing us by saying that there exists official artwork of a shiny Shuckle, could someone maybe find and upload it? Or at least provide the address? I already checked- if someone had uploaded it to the archives, it's not under the "Shuckle" category. - unsigned comment from Missingno. Master (talk • contribs) 22:29, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Sea in Pal Park?

Shuckle can caught in the sea? Is that right? And if, why?--Empoleon96 16:11, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Shiny Artwork

Echoing the comment above, can someone please upload it? I've looked, but I can't find it anywhere. XVuvuzela2010X 13:03, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Gen II Moveset

I changed the moveset page for gen II, as I noticed that Bide and Wrap were switched for some reason. I have a Shuckle on my team in a Gold version file that I've been working on currently, and it definitely learned Bide at level 28 and knew Wrap when I caught it at level 15. However, it's possible that it may have been switched for Crystal? I don't know. It wasn't noted as such on the page. Frezgle 03:21, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Power Trick (revisited)

I'm revisiting the old discussion up there ^, and saying I updated the math for when used in a Triple battle, but is it possible that the third Pokémon could have another ability that could contribute on top of the second with Flower Gift? --LimeGreenCharizard-- 21:00, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out, I changed the number because I worked it out using the formula and got the 28, however I have found a way to get an even higher amount of damage, so I'll post the new formula here when I've calculated it. Pikiwyn ^talk 22:37, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Basically the same as before, except Shuckle Mimics Me First, one of the opposing Pokemon uses Rollout/Defense Curl, on the fifth hit Shuckle Me Firsts it, while another opposing Pokemon Tricks Shuckle a Choice Band. I found the formula here [1], it has pretty much every possible scenario.*
(((((((100 x 2/5) + 2) x (2160 x 7368/50)/1)) + 2) x 2 x 1,5 x 1,5 x 4 x 1,5)

=360,949,532 Pikiwyn ^talk 22:50, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

That's great, but my question still stands. I can't think of any other abilities that could help, but am I missing something? --LimeGreenCharizard-- 05:43, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

According to the damage formula site on Smogon there's nothing else, and I looked through the Gen V abilities and couldn't find anything, so I don't think so. I'm not sure if Metronome works on Me First, but that could get a higher amount of damage. Pikiwyn ^talk 12:15, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Gen2: berry to rare candy, a mere legend?

I tried to test the idea that shuckle turns berry's to rare candy on a ROM by giving one to Shuckle and artificially speeding up time. i can usually force time based mechanics to do as i wish, but i never managed to replicate this claim empiracally. after the passage of two days and several thousands of steps, nothing changed. i tried to level the shuckle up to level 50; still nothing. after doing research, i didn't find so much as a single person claiming to have sucessfully pulled this off. i'm guessing it's just a legend.

--Crubs 18:10, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Name

in the article it says its name is a combination of the words shuck and turtle, but to me it seems to be a combination of shuck and chuckle because the word chuckle means to make a short laugh or smile and to me it seems as a joke since it never smiles in the game does anyone else agree?It just seems more likely and i think it should be in the name origin.VENUS,MEGA,SCEPT,TORTE,SERP 20:48, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

No. ☆The Solar Dragon☆ 21:03, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Shiny Artwork

Since nobody can find official shiny artwork for Shuckle, I don't see how we can claim it exists. Consider it removed until someone coughs up. Me, Hurray! 16:52, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Trivia Damage

I've removed the incorrect damage that people keep re-adding to the page. There are multiple problems with it:

• You can only have 1 instance of Helping Hand. The modifier does not stack with itself.
• Me First only will work on the first turn, the boost will not be in effect during Rollout-Turn5.
• Metronome's modifier will be at most 0x2000 after the 5th turn. Which is good. Start with n=0 on turn 1, after turn n+=1. The modifier for the held item (metronome) will be 0x2000.
• Pure Power / Huge Power's boost isn't a doubling of the attacking power iirc.

Before anyone re-adds the calculated damage to the page, please show your work/reasoning on this discussion page so that it can be checked by others. Be sure to use the B/W Damage Formula @ Smogon and the modifier chaining method it describes. Kaphotics (talk) 07:58, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

I've re-added the damage from the Rollout page, which I previously had properly calculated (half a year ago). Kaphotics (talk) 01:19, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Doesn't the page on Helping Hand state that it stacks in Triple Battles? And Pure Power and Huge Power double base attack, it says so both on its page here and on the B/W Damage Formula page. Even ignoring the Me First boost and using only one Helping Hand, I still get (((2*100/5+2)*960*1.5*614*2*1.5*4/1)/50+2)*2*1.5*4*2 = 213,896,016 after allowing for downward rounding. Arcorann (talk) 02:11, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Helping Hand: Trigger 21e5ff0 ~ Modifier: 0x1800 ~ If user has been the target of Helping Hand this turn.

Helping Hand doesn't stack with itself; it's just a check to see if the attacking Pokemon has been "helped"

Huge Power and Pure Power do in fact double the base attack; but it never mentions skill swapping. At second glance, I'm probably wrong on this; VS. Player source doesn't reduce the modifier even if it has been Skill Swapped. So sure, it's 0x2000

You can't just simply multiply everything together. Modifiers have to be chained which leads to discrepancies in damage. The underlying reason we debug'd for was to get the exact output the game would for faithful interpretation of battles :) All that was wrong with the old trivia was that it was using Me First and an extra Helping Hand (1.5 * 1.5 = 2.25); 481,000,000/2.25 ~ 213,000,000. Not sure if the chaining method results in a similar difference. I'm pretty sure your train of thought and modifiers being used are correct; if you calculate it out using the method described on the article (rather than using the DPPt approximation) then you should have the actual number. Feel free to add/change it... I'm just lazy. Kaphotics (talk) 05:25, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

According to this post on Smogon, Helping Hand stacks in Triple Battles. If we add the extra Helping Hand, the damage becomes 320,844,024. I think that observed results should override the theoretical analysis, and will probably change the number unless you can find evidence that contradicts this. Arcorann (talk) 01:27, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Posted in 2011. We explicitly checked ourselves; the way the trigger works (as described in the article) is "If user has been the target of Helping Hand this turn", chainmod 0x1800. (~ *1.5). It's evaluated by a "has been helped" check. When Helping Hand is used on a target, it will set a flag for the user that it "has been helped". Kaphotics (talk) 19:34, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

To be certain on this I'll have Bond697 go over it again and check.Kaphotics (talk) 19:40, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Apparently Flower Gift stacks (Smogon and UPC agree on this). In this case, then, it's 431,266,036. Arcorann (talk) 11:02, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, didn't recalculate properly. It's actually 481,266,000 (the expression being floor(((2*100/5+2)*960*1.5*1.5*614*2*1.5*1.5*4/1)/50+2)*2*1.5*4*2). Arcorann (talk) 11:44, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

You need to use the BW formula, not the DP approximate formula. Can't say I agree with the stacking. Kaphotics (talk) 03:21, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Coudn't Shuckle Mimic a Stored Power to get a 600 base power? Or is Rollout still stronger? And even if Rollout is stronger, couldn't some Pokemon have a 4x weakness to Psychic? Just throwing that out there. golden009

Stored Power is Special, and can reach 820 (but I remember a cap for 600, so can someone check this), and while Deoxys can mimic this it loses huge power and flower gift. Nice try though.TrainerX493 (talk) 14:54, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Technically, a way for it to deal more damage is if the foe is a level 1 Happiny that has used Reflect Type on a Bug- and Flying-type Pokémon (such as Combee, Vespiquen, Ledyba, Yanma, Butterfree, etc.) so that it can take up to 413,000,000 damage. I believe this is because Happiny's defense is half that of Ledyba, Yanma and Combee. Do comment if I'm wrong, but I do believe this is correct. Of course, the 413,000,000 damage is hypothetical damage; the most damage that can be dealt in one move is some 250. - unsigned comment from Nitrodog96 (talk • contribs)

It doesn't matter whether it's Happiny or Ledyba, they both have the minimum Defense of 4 at level 1 as you can test in the games or calculate.--電禅Den Zen 17:08, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Victini max damege

Now it's my turn. Can Victini deal more damage then Shuckle by having Shuckle use Power Split many times (1.send out Shuckle 2.Power Trick 3.Power Split on Victini 4.return Shuckle 5.repeat) and therefore giving Victini 614/613(rounded up/rounded down) attack like Shuckle. And instated of (Defense Curl+Rollout turn 5300BP vs. 4X weakness, it would be 180BP(V-create)+Sunny Day vs. 6X weakness on Dry Skin Paras. Also does Flash Fire effect get removed when the ability is removed or does it stay (and therefore can be used with Huge Power)?TrainerX493 (talk) 15:23, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Can the game actually handle that much damage?

I feel like 16-bit math would overflow in several places trying to calculate that kind of damage, especially on the Game Boy versions. Can you really do millions of damage, or would it truncate? ⬡ (talk) 01:18, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure it would matter. A level 1 target would only have single-digit or barely double-digit HP, so this is more of a theoretical mathematical exercise than an actual examination of how the system would attempt to execute that situation. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 02:10, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

What makes Shuckle so special?

Why can Shuckle deal the most damage (with such low attack)? Wouldn't Golem deal more damage under the same conditions? Prisoner123 (talk) 09:21, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Shuckle uses Power Trick to switch its Attack and Def, making its Attack 230, which certainly Golem (or any other pokémon) doesn't have. That's what makes it special. Luna Tiger * the Arc Toraph 11:03, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Victini

Couldn't LVL 100 Victini do more damage? If it had:

Triple Battle, both allies using helping hand

Sunny

Adamant Nature

Get Flash Fire (Skill Swap)and get hit by Fire attack Then Skill Swap for Huge Power/Pure Power

Max attack stat (from Swords Dance or moves like that)

Use V-Create (and there's STAB) Critical Hit

Lowest defence (stats from moves like Screech and Defence lowering nature like Hasty or Lonely) LVL 1 Dry Skin Paras

Would this do more than Shuckle?

AD Troller Shedinja (talk) 02:49, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

I may have missed something, but I calculated that even with a Fire Gem, that'd only be around twelve million damage. Nothing compared to the Shuckle. --Wynd Fox 04:54, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Generation VI movesets

Because it has Generation V movesets, could someone update it or put in an incomplete template, if not, then the current generation's moveset will not change. --Cinday123 (Talk) 06:23, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

New max damage

"A level 100 Shuckle can potentially deal the most damage in a single attack by using Ice Ball via Mimic."

I'm not sure if this is where I should put this, but the discussion about the max damage Shuckle can do has been going on for a little while, and I think this Smogon thread[2] shows the max damage in Gen VI as being 12,085,363,749. It involves a Huge Power Fire-type Flash Fire Shuckle using V-create (through Mimic) to a Dry Skin Steel/Bug/Grass-type Gastly (through Reflect Type and Forest's Curse) in the sun, and a lot more. Again, I'm not sure if it really matters or not, but I just thought it would be neat to share.

517.5 Base Special Defense?

If shuckle is on a sandstorm, and wears an assault vest, does it mean shuckle will have a special defense stat of 1381 at max? Or, is there some sort of limit, like 999?

TheNintendoGuy (talk) 15:48, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

I can't edit trivia, but Shuckle having the highest Defenses of Bug & Rock types is implied.

If it has the highest Defense & Sp. Def of ALL Pokemon, it's implied, thus the edit should be undone. Unowninator (talk) 17:30, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

Revist: Shuckle damage

So, I'm wondering if this can be revisited and if someone could calculate for me? I'm not sure what to do with so many modifiers. Anyway, if I go back to the Victini thing. With V-create base power being 180, and if shuckle uses power trick and baton passes to victini, or any fire type really, give it max attack, now being 2456. Also, would Huge Power or Adaptability do more damage? Because use either one that does. But before that with the flash fire. Also 2 helping hands with a triple battle, and the sunny day, not to mention a choice band. Adamant nature. All on a level 1 happiny who used I guess a mimic reflect type on a durant, causing it to be steel and bug, now using forest curse on it to add the grass typing. And it being at -6 (.25) defense, with gentle nature. All a critical hit, and max roll for power. And if I missed any other modifiers please feel free to add, I believe I got everything but I don't know.

So everything is:

Level 100 Victini vs. Level 1 Happiny

Modifiers:

Victiny-

- Flash fire
- Max attack after power trick shuckle
- Flash fire just to boost, then to -
- Adaptability or Huge power (Whichever does most)
- 2 helping hand
- Sunny Day
- Choice band
- Adamant nature
- Crit
- Max roll

Happiny-

- Bug, Steel, and grass typing (Reflect type and then forest curse)
- -6 defense, gentle nature

IF I MISSED ANYTHING PLEASE ADD, I AM INTERESTED IN SEEING IF THIS IS MORE THAN THE SHUCKLE - unsigned comment from Exultade (talk • contribs)

Just looking at the attacks themselves, V-Create's base power is 180 and a Defense Curl-boosted final turn of Rollout has a base power of 960. That's such a huge difference that I don't feel like bothering to do the rest of the math; I'm confident Rollout is higher. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 16:31, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

But you have to realize, even just with the 180, there's also the sun, the extra STAB, the x8 instead of x4, Flash fire, I know this isnt the right comparison but its Shuckle's 960 to the previous 180, now 1080, although I know it's not just multiplying the 180 with the others, Im just saying it might be possible. - unsigned comment from Exultade (talk • contribs)

You appear to have forgetten to attach Dry Skin to the Happiny (and also that Shuckle gets STAB as well). If you'd really deperately want to know, I suggest reading the above sections first, then you could try to have a look at this (or this), and at this. Then you'll find that this is super complicated math (and that this could help). I'm not as super confident as Pumpkinking (especially after reading the above), but I too believe Rollout to be higher. But I really don't want to calculate. Plus, I feel this isn't too important anyway. (At least not to me.) Nescientist (talk) 00:59, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

I do understand the huge damage difference, and forgot about dry skin. After all of that I mean it has to be close, honestly you could also put like a mega charizard-Y with blast burn, but you would also lose 30 power and no item, or we could even do like mewtwo Y, with reflect type and mimic. But after all that, I think it's probably still shuckle just because of the imense now 230 attack. We could even max attack and reflect a fire type, and mimic the move, and do that, I feel that that would do more damage, but it still could probably be rollout.

If we used shuckle, we would have an immense 2456 attack, with the blast burn, sunny day, STAB with adaptability, or just almost 5000 attack with huge power. dry skin, and 8x super effective. I feel this would do more damage than everything else. Obviously its just numbers, and very complicated, and very particular, and wont ever happen. But it's very interesting to me, just to realize that much damage. Exultade (talk) 15:48, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

And Im not sure if I missed anything, or messed up the calculations, but I got 365,462,440.4 damage. Which would be the most, although Im not sure I did everything correct, and it involves a huge amount of chance and preporation and would never happen. If you're interested in what I did, it's basically a combination of everything, but with flower gift, the sun, flash fire, huge power, metronome, a lot more. Exultade (talk) 16:06, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

Why does it have to be Ice Ball for the trivia thing?

What's wrong with Rollout? Unowninator (talk) 05:48, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Rollout can only hit for x4 damage (super-effective on both of the target's types). Ice Ball can hit for x8 (supereffective on Dragon and Flying, plus the target is affected by Forest's Curse). Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 15:40, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Ah. Unowninator (talk) 15:55, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Shuckle can't learn Ice Ball, so it's a moot point. - unsigned comment from El shendee (talk • contribs)

It can use it via Mimic, which it gets via Move Tutor in Generation III. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 15:51, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

Damage trivium: is it worth keeping?

If you look through the talk page of this article, it becomes apparent quite quickly that there are a lot of theories (some credible, some not so much) on what Pokemon and move might produce the highest damage, and very few of them appear to have had anybody try to do the math. Even when folks try to do the math, arguments arise as to how game mechanics work (I remember vividly a discussion about whether Helping Hand stacks or not, and I'm sure there's been more). In a theoretical context like this, it's also quite easy to make obvious mechanical mistakes (I saw a theory try to give Shuckle Huge Power and Flash Fire at the same time, for instance).

My point is: are we really confident enough in this trivium's truth that we can include it on this page or any other? Have any of us actually calculated out all these scenarios? And even if both of the above were true... we're not a strategy guide or online battling sim, so our mission statement only sort of tangentially includes such esoteric numbers. Is there a convincing reason to include a trivium we're not 100% sure on the validity of, beyond "people seem vaguely interested by it"? Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 16:07, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

I believe you're mixing two largely independent topics here. I will share my thoughts on both of them:

• On notability: I believe Trivia doesn't need to be as notable (or whatever you wanna call it) as information at any other section, so to say. I wouldn't necessarily have included the damage information myself, but I see no reason to remove it based on lacking notability. I believe it might be notable trivia (or more accurately, I wouldn't wanna call it unnotable trivia).
• On reliability/accuracy: I guess if you question the reliability of that statement, you should be able to state why, to prove it wrong; if you can't do that (or don't want to), you need to treat it as reliable.

And another (personal?) note: You (Pumpkinking) recently removed a calculation at Ice Beam, quoting Force Fire who removed it here at Shuckle once, saying "We are not a strategy guide. This is all that needs to be said." I definitely agree to the first sentence, and I possibly agree to the second one for the Shuckle article. If you remove the calculation from Bulbapedia entirely, you basically refuse to give readers an explanation (which basically makes some kind of unsourced claim, causing Unowninator and possibly others to be confused); someone (apparently) "did the math", you just removed it. (And that was actually the point why I included the link to Ice Ball, cause at the time I did that, the whole calculation was there.) Nescientist (talk) 09:45, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I believe giving the whole calculation is too strategy guide-ish for our pages, and that without the calculation it's too easy to accidentally be wrong for us to retain in good conscience. I think it should go altogether. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 15:27, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

Do you see any reason why restoring the calculation (anywhere) would be bad (i.e., worse than the current state)? Or rather, do you (personally) have a reason why you removed the calculation in the first place (but of course not the entire thing)? From what I can tell, you seemingly agree that notability and reliability are largely independent issues, and that the (complete) removal didn't solve the notability issue but at the same time introduced/worsened the reliability issue.

Regarding "it should go altogether": I don't heavily disagree, but I also don't really agree. Nescientist (talk) 17:00, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

When something gets so complicated that accurately describing it takes a solid (and dense) paragraph, it's not really worth including as trivia. Furthermore, the "max damage" situation just requires so much complicity from all battlers that it's not even a practical feat; it's very much contrived. IMO that hurts its worth as trivia. Mostly, though, IMO it just inspires too much quibbling and is too complicated to be confident of a correct answer to be worth including, period.

But if this belongs anywhere, as far as I'm concerned, it really only belongs on the damage page, because that's very much the core. Shuckle is otherwise pretty much equally as important to the trivia as Flash Fire or Ice Ball or just about any other part of the situation is; but it's not really sensible to put it on all those pages, nor is it any more sensible really to only have it on Shuckle's page. This is about damage; IMO that's where it belongs. Tiddlywinks (talk) 17:22, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

Very persuasive, Tiddlywinks; your first paragraph pretty much summed up my opinion but more eloquently, and your second one won me over. I've added the point to damage, but as long as discussion is ongoing here I'm not removing it here yet (although I agree it should go). Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 17:53, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

I agree to the complicated argument in general, but I guess there shouldn't really be a character limit per se. In this case, I think the trivium itself isn't really long ("Shuckle can deal the most potential virtual damage / The most potential virtual damage than can be dealt is 721,899,685"). It's just the explanation backing up this claim that is. I think I would be against keeping the trivium without having the explanation anywhere on Bulbapedia — that's pretty much like saying "Joe Montana is the best quarterback of all time", then running away. And again, if you doubt the trivium is correct, I believe that's a different issue.

My idea would have been to only include it in all needed detail once. And in my opinion, the most adequate places seem to be damage or Shuckle. If there's consensus on not keeping it anywhere (because it's too contrived etc.), that's also fine to me; I don't want to cast my vote for or against that. Nescientist (talk) 19:32, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

For reasons mentioned above, I would still like to "restore" the calculation somewhere. In case nobody says they're okay with that being as part of the trivium within an article (damage, I guess), I would be doing it at least as a hidden comment. Nescientist (talk) 19:37, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

Trivia section - Lowest base HP comparison

Currently it reads - "Shuckle has the lowest base HP stat of all Rock-type Pokémon, with only two other Pokémon having lower base HP."

However, there are 5 Pokémon with lower base HP: Shedinja, Diglett, Diglett (Alolan), Magikarp & Pichu. Source: [3] {AnexasBlack (talk) 22:39, 8 March 2017 (UTC)}

Removed the false information; thanks for pointing it out. --Carmen★ (Talk | contribs) 22:45, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

The info is not false or anything.

In point of fact, Shuckle has 20 base HP. Magikarp and Pichu have 20 base HP. That is not "lower" than Shuckle.

I don't entirely know if it's worth trying to distinguish Diglett and Alolan Diglett either and saying there's "three", since that would imply there were Pokemon with something like 8, 9, and 10 base HP, rather than two of them being tied. Jumping through hoops just to note "Alolan" Diglett isn't worth it IMO. Tiddlywinks (talk) 22:53, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

For what it's worth, we've always consistently considered different forms of a Pokémon to be just one Pokémon, and including regional variants on their normal counterparts' species pages sets the precedent that they are just forms and not anything more. So it wouldn't just be "jumping through hoops" to distinguish Diglett from Alolan Diglett; it would outright be false to consider them two separate Pokémon. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 05:04, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Suckle's real world equivilent

Currently the article suggests that Shuckle is a turtle I don't think that is correct. I think it would be more correct to say that it has similarities with both scale insects and barnacles. I edited the main page to add this information but I would also like to remove the mention of it being a turtle since I don't think that is right. However I am new to editing Bulbapedia so I didn't want to make a larger change without community ascent. Are there any objections to me removing the world turtle from the shuckle biology section? - unsigned comment from Geoteridar (talk • contribs)

I do see some resemblance to turtles. There's the classic shell and the way the flippers stick out of it. It is vague, though, and more emphasis should probably be made on the scale insects and barnacles. But do not remove the turtle part. GrammarFreak01 (talk) 20:20, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Fair enough I will leave it be. Geoteridar (talk) 20:25, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

It already mentions scale insects in the origins section. The biology section is for describing the Pokémon's appearance (among other things).--ForceFire 05:40, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

Snake Wine

This website: https://bogleech.com/pokemon/pbetashuckle.html makes what I believe is a fairly good case--based on the design of Shuckle's beta Gen II design-- that it was based, not on a scale insect or a slime mold, as is commonly believed, but on Okinawan snake wine. This would explain its snake-like head, its ability to ferment things in its flask-like shell, and its lack of a Bug-type in the beta game. Should we edit the article to reflect what may have been Shuckle's ultimate inspiration? ElSqiubbonator (talk) 16:35, 3 June 2020 (UTC)ElSquibbonator

Information regarding the beta are currently being put aside until we feel it is safe to create articles on them.--ForceFire 16:48, 3 June 2020 (UTC)