Talk:Substitute (move)

Sprites

should we get sprites for the decoy pokemon? Lord of Origami 11:44, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I say so. Definitely--KukiTalk 11:55, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah! We need sprites of Substitute from all Generations from back and front. Is it possible? --Maxim 12:05, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

It is possible for that to be possible!--KukiTalk 12:08, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Is it? I can't even find sprites of the Substitute from Diamond/Pearl... It'd be cool if you could do it up with the template for the Pokémon Sprites. --Phred 06:31, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

It should be in the games' data... the question is... hrm. TTEchidna 04:40, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

You mean this?

Generation I and II:

Generation III:

Generation IV:

hfc2X 21:53, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Holy shit, that's it in Gen I? In battle!? WHAT. TTEchidna 06:15, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

With Kecleon

Well, since it has Color Change... when something hits it, does it change its type? I'd assume not... but... TTEchidna 05:13, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Not in Generation IV, haha too lazy to check III

Outdated information

The information in this article is either wrong or from the first generation of Pokémon. Substitute, for instance, WILL protect against sleep moves such as Hypnosis, and a Pokémon using Explosion against a substitute WILL faint. This article needs a full revamp. --Kefkafreak 22:05, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

By breeding

This doesn't apply to the Substitute page itself, but to quite a number of Pokémon pages that list Substitute as an egg move. For example, see Furret (Pokémon)#By breeding. While Substitute can be bred, in Generation IV, this is simply because it is a TM. In Generation III, it was an egg move, and I suspect it has been carried over in many of the breeding move lists for Pokémon. I don't think it belongs in the primary 'by breeding' for Pokémon, though. In the Generation III breeding moves for sure, but not the Generation IV ones. Are there any reasons to keep Substitute in the breeding move lists on main Pokémon pages? — Laoris _(Blah) 16:45, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Because it's programmed that way into the game coding. Just because a move can be taught through a TM doesn't mean it can't be programmed into a breeding list. Another example is Remoraid and Thunder Wave, where Thunder Wave is still on Remoraid's breeding list despite Thunder Wave becoming TM73 in Generation IV and Remoraid being compatible with said TM. If the game code says it, we list it. --Shiningpikablu252 19:08, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Two moves named 'Substitute' in Japanese???

Wha--??? Both Substitute and Switcheroo are called 'Substitute' in Japanese??? --Theryguy512 22:07, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

If you'll notice the kanji, they're spelled different. It just translates the same. TTEchidna 00:42, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

I went ahead and changed both translations, to avoid confusion.—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 06:20, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! --Theryguy512 11:06, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Gen III

Al that know TMs can learn it, right? Or are there specifics that also can't? ^ht14 03:49, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Beldum can't. That's all I noticed.alec9 * - * 02:02, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

-_- Beldum cannot learn TMs... ^ht14 02:06, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

how to get the TM

sorry about asking such a simple question, but where to you get the TM?

As a general rule, for directions on where to find a TM, you should go to the page for that TM (it's actually a separate page from the page for the move itself, since some TMs change their moves between generations; that threw me off for a while also). If a move can be learned by TM, there will be a link to that TM's page in the article, and that will list locations for that TM in each game it's available in. (Also, on talk pages, sign your messages with four tilde's (~), and you'll get a nice little name tag/time stamp just like this.) HerbieHero 03:59, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

BW

Substitute doll sprite from BW, anyone? --Maxim 15:33, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Mr. Mime

Wouldn't it be fair to say that Substitute was the signature move of Mr. Mime in Generation 1 and 2? Considering it was the only pokemon to learn it apart from event? Buizel1991 13:49, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Breaking the Substitute

I'm surprised this wasn't on the page, but is there some sort of system that decides how much damage a substitute can take before it breaks? --☆FiMbUlWiNtEr2O|2☆ 23:40, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

It does say, under Generation I: The substitute has the amount of HP the user of the move sacrificed to create it, plus one additional hit point. --Andy^P_K^M_N (talk) 01:42, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Pokemon Stadium's Substitute

I was just playing the original Pokémon Stadium, and something strange happened... I had had my Rhyhorn use Substitute while battling the opponent's last Pokémon; a Sandshrew that was Poisoned. The battle ended when Sandshrew took Poison damage after his attack and before mine on that turn. What's weird is that when it zoomed in on my side of the field to declare my victory, the Substitute was still showing - for a moment - then it disappeared and my Rhyhorn didn't come back. Should this be mentioned (either in the section on its effects in Stadium/Generation I or under trivia)?

Also, it seems there isn't a sprite here for Substitute in Pokémon Stadium... unless it's the same as it is in Pokémon Stadium 2, in which case it should say that, right? I♥Togetic 03:45, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Weather damage

If a Pokémon is behind a Substitute (and does not have a weather modifying ability), and damage inflicting weather is active, at the end of the turn will it take damage from the weather?--NOBODY (talk) 21:19, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Gen 1 status blocking

It seems that in Gen 1 substitute will block some status moves, but not others. I know for sure that in Yellow Version a substitute will not block stun spore.

Should updating the Gen 1 info be looked into? Perhaps with a list of moves that are not blocked?

Smash 4

The Substitute appears in Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS/Wii U, possibly as one of Greninja's moves, as it is seen on its page on the website. Bigpboy (talk) 14:26, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Incidentally, I'm trying to edit this page to add this image to the trivia point about it appearing in the Direct, but I can't get any edits at all to save; the page instead goes blank and stops trying to load. Toomai Glittershine 19:53, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Design origin

Does anyone know what the inspiration for the substitute's design is? It's VAGUELY Rhyhorn like, but has been getting further and further from that as time goes on. Is it supposed to be an unused design, were they trying to go for a unique look that still evokes the existing style, or was it just designed separately so that it isn't a specific Pokémon? --KingStarscream (talk) 19:00, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

In fact, is it possible it's based off of the Godzilla knock-off used in the proof-of-concept sketches? --KingStarscream (talk) 19:08, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

It's just the most common Gen I party menu sprite whose design has been elaborated on over time. --Abcboy (talk) 19:40, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Attempt to catch

Does having a Substitute on the field prevent a wild Pokémon from being caught? I know it's very unlikely to happen, but Mr. Mime swarming on Unova Route 20 can be a high enough level to have learned it, so it's a possibility. --KingStarscream (talk) 17:54, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

Sound Z-moves

Does substitute block oceanic operetta or clangorous Soulblaze? sumwun (talk) 02:37, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Clangorous Soulblaze is a sound move, but Oceanic Operetta is not. A substitute will sop up the latter just fine. SadisticMystic (talk) 06:06, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Contradiction

What is this sentence supposed to mean?

"In the Western games, they can hit and drain HP, but will not drain any HP if they hit."

It's in the effect section of Generation I in the part about draining moves, but it's unclear when/if they can hit and drain HP. Suic12- (talk) 17:22, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

As you can see in this video, they will hit and drain HP, but not drain any HP if they break the substitute. That would be what that line was intended to say. --SnorlaxMonster 23:00, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Signature move for Mr. Mime

Wouldn't it be fair to say that Substitute was the signature move of Mr. Mime in Generation 1 and 2? Karasuhebi (talk) 11:45, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Poké Ball Blocking

If a wild Pokémon has a Substitute up, can it be successfully caught? I just ran into this issue in HeartGold, and the answer is no. However, I have no idea which games this is true for and which it is not. Can someone with a more complete Pokémon game collection test this out and add it to the article, please? - unsigned comment from GoldenSandslash15 (talk • contribs)

Substitute doll split

Especially now that substitute can also be created by Shed Tail, I think it would make sense to split a lot of the technical details of the substitute doll itself to a separate page. The details on how the doll is created by cutting HP would stay here though. (The idea is similar to how weather-creating moves and weather conditions have separate pages.)

I think this split would also allow cameo appearances of the substitute doll itself to be discussed in more detail, as well as its appearances in merchandise. --SnorlaxMonster 04:56, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Support. Nescientist (talk) 13:03, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Should it be "Substitute doll" or "Substitute (doll)"? Merch specifically doesn't call it a doll, just "Substitute". glik^glak 13:21, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Support. And yeah Substitute (doll) might make sense for the title, although fwiw there is a Substitute Doll decoration in ORAS. Landfish7 02:21, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

That being said, if the article is also covering the mechanics, maybe (doll) isn't the best dabtag option? Landfish7 02:27, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

"Substitute (doll)" might be better, since as pointed out, merchandise does consistently just call it "Substitute". Even in-game, the status effect is just called "Substitute", and effects that interact with it (such as Infiltrator) just refer to it as a "substitute". With regards to the ORAS decorations, note that "Substitute Doll" is the name of the decoration, just like "Totodile Doll" etc. too.

I don't think "(doll)" is necessarily a problem when referring to game mechanics, since the Pokémon does create a doll as part of the move. However, I'd be fine with "(object)" too, if we think that's clearer. --SnorlaxMonster 03:33, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Yeah (doll) is probably fine. Landfish7 11:03, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Support. Salmancer (talk) 02:58, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

I was originally going to oppose this, but I forgot about Shed Tail. That's the only reason I'll support this. ¿¡Unowninator?! (talk) 03:32, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Support. The Substitute doll is iconic enough for its own page, I think. Buwbasaur (talk) 12:06, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

(resetting indent)Drafts for Substitute (move) and Substitute (doll) have been created. The draft for the base move page has certain things hidden so that it doesn't show up in mainspace categories, which will be unhidden when mainspaced. Landfish7 16:02, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I support this too. It's clearly a notable enough subject to deserve its own page. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 13:10, 1 May 2024 (UTC)