Talk:Legendary Pokémon

Archive #1
Archive #2

Separating Mythical and Legendary Pokémon

The matter of separating the articles of Legendary and Mythical Pokémon is in discussion because of Generation VI's newly introduced disambiguation of the term Mythical Pokémon. I have started a short draft that anyone should feel free to expand. Meanwhile, in response to Bwburke94 (talk) 15:18, 5 May 2015 (UTC):

A better phrasing might be "a related group of Pokémon related to Legendary Pokémon", but I'm being conservative for the time being. I haven't found evidence supporting that Mythical Pokémon are indeed Legendary (as far as Japanese media are concerned), and the fact that recent text refers to all of them collectively as "Legendary and Mythical Pokémon" makes me think they aren't. Mythical Pokémon as an English term may be relatively recent, but 幻のポケモン has always been a thing -- it has been in use on and off since 1998 (potentially even earlier, in Mew ads from 1996). It started catching on (that is to say, being used more commonly) around 2007 or 2008. Prior to that, reference to Mythical Pokémon has been generally informal, with several other terms like 特別なポケモン (Tokubetsuna Pokémon, probably a parallel to Event Pokémon) seen in official media. Ever since Gen 5, it has been in use unambiguously. You can even find a formal definition of 幻のポケモン in Pokescrap's page.

As of today (arguably since Gen 5) the same holds for Mythical, as there is no reference of Mythical Pokémon being Legendary anywhere, as far as I know. Even cases like Deoxys, where 幻のポケモン was originally mistranslated as Legendary Pokémon, are now properly classified. The assumption that Mythical Pokémon are Legendary is natural, and the western community especially is accustomed to the convention for most of the franchise's life, with the proper term coined years after its Japanese counterpart (granted, the term Rare Pokémon was once being used in places like Pokémon Ranger and announcements), but I have to ask: what's the point of including Mythical Pokémon in the Legendary Pokémon page when they aren't officially referred to as Legendary Pokémon? Saving clicks? Is an encyclopedia's mission to pander to the community's fondness of obsolete terminology, or is it to be accurate and in-line with the series' current conventions and lore? Ash Pokemaster (talk) 17:41, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Bulbapedia's mission is not necessarily to be official, it's to be an informative English-language Pokémon encyclopedia, which happens to be a mission that involves official sources. Since we're just going in circles again, let me just point out that when the community searches for "Legendary Pokémon", they expect to find info on Mew, Celebi, Jirachi, et cetera in addition to those normally obtainable within their debut generation. Splitting the page would also have the effect of splitting Mew and Keldeo from their respective legendary "families", to the detriment of the wiki. In addition, my position since the start of English-language Gen V has been that mythicals are a subset of legendaries, and as I pointed out last time we talked about this, North American Super Smash Bros. for Wii U backs me up, while you have not cited an English-language source in your argument. Bwburke94 (talk) 06:50, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

I suppose that we principally disagree on whether Bulbapedia's coverage should be based strictly on canonical sources (which exclude contradicting English-language sources which commonly include mistranslations, although this may also be a matter of argument) or be more in-line with fans' expectations. I will admit I have no source that downright states "Mythical Pokémon are not a subset of Legendary Pokémon", but what's the point of the "Legendary and Mythical Pokémon" statement if the latter aren't a separate group? It would be a redundancy. Your NA Smash Bros. argument only augments my point, if only because the difference between the European and the NA version simply proves that there's an existing ambiguity that the more careful sources (ie. the ones that don't spell Onix as "Onyx") take under consideration. Besides, why should it be taken under consideration over the European translation? What makes it inherently more valid?

I will agree that this is most likely going to go in circles. It would be better to let other people weigh in. --Ash Pokemaster (talk) 07:37, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

People expecting to find Mythical Pokémon when coming to this page can be solved with a hatnote and in-article prose. However, we should be using official definitions whereever possible. --SnorlaxMonster 09:38, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

SnorlaxMonster and Ash Pokemaster, I get what you're implying, and I see your reasoning, but do you actually have a source that directly states mythicals are not legendaries? Bwburke94 (talk) 11:37, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, there is an official source that explicitly shows they're separate groups that don't overlap: Corocoro. In either October or November 2014 - can't remember which - Corocoro promised that every Legendary Pokémon would be available for capture in ORAS. Come the games' release, we saw that this didn't include Mythical Pokémon. EpicDeino (talk) 23:41, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Corocoro is a Japanese source, and the debate is over the English terminology. However, both the US and UK official ORAS sites made the same claim, albeit with different wording, stating that "between XYORAS, all Legendary Pokémon will be obtainable". Bwburke94 (talk) 07:57, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

No, the debate is not on the English terminology, but on the group to which it refers. They're still called Legendary and Mythical whether Bulbapedia says Mythical is a subset or a separate group. In fact, the page has actually called Mythical by the same name under both circumstances in the past. that isn't being debated right now. What is being debated is whether Mythical Pokémon, a group which exists in other languages as well and is NOT exclusive to the English language, is separate from Legendary. This has absolutely nothing to do with the name of the group when the group itself is the same in the other languages - the idea of things having different names in different languages applies to basically everything else in Pokémon as well, and doesn't prevent foreign language sources from being used as evidence when the subject itself remains identical. EpicDeino (talk) 03:41, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

The debate is on the group to which it refers in English, so this is indeed over English terminology. Bwburke94 (talk) 11:28, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, but... I don't understand what you mean? As I JUST explained, the group exists in every language. The group, which is consistent throughout every language, is referred to in English as Mythical, but still exists, albeit by various other names, in other languages - like everything else in the series, actually. I even provided a link to the French encyclopædia Pokémonis as proof of the group's existence in other languages. The name has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about. By your logic, no Japanese source could be used for anything that has a different name in English. To reiterate from my previous post: we aren't debating the name of the group. We're debating whether or not said group, which exists in every language, albeit with a different name because it is translated like everything else in the series, is separate from Legendary, another group which exists in every language, again with different names because it is translated like everything else in the series. Please, explain why having a different name would prevent a group that is otherwise completely consistent between languages from being considered the same thing when everything else in the series is in the same situation. EpicDeino (talk) 18:37, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Mythical Pokémon = Events?

I know for a fact that the only difference I have found from Legendary and Mythical Pokémon is that most Mythical Pokémon are usually event exclusive with even stats all over (most of the time) and that Legendary Pokémon are usually found towards the ends of games and commonly have higher stats than Mythical Pokémon (not counting Mega Diancie). BowserBrowser (talk) 10:29, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

It's actually even simpler than that. Legendaries are available in-game. Mythical are unavailable in-game. Nothing else you mentioned is related. It has nothing to do with high stats versus low, or being near the end of the game, or "usually" being event-exclusive (even Deoxys, formerly Mythical, has been listed as "other" in the Japanese promotional material and simply hasn't been referenced as either Legendary or Mythical in English promotions since ORAS made it available as far as I know - being event-only is not "usually" a trait shared, but always the case), or whether stats are balanced or specialized. There is a clear-cut distinction between them. (Also, just as a side note, the definition was already on the article before you said this, so I'm not really sure what your point was? XD) EpicDeino (talk) 23:41, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Ah. BowserBrowser (talk) 21:52, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Deoxys

To avoid edit warring, I'm not changing the page right now (I already had changed Deoxys to say it isn't Mythical and that was reverted, so I'm pretty sure doing so again wouldn't be allowed), but I just wanted to explain the argument against Deoxys being Mythical. In the Pokémon Scrap event, where you had to collect those clippings to earn Shaymin, Keldeo and Victini, the page on the official site explicitly stated something along the lines of "Shaymin, Keldeo and Victini, like other Mythical Pokémon, cannot be normally obtained in Pokémon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire." This is an official statement that Mythical does always mean event-only, so Deoxys isn't an exception - it's just not Mythical any more. It was before, but it has officially lost the status. EpicDeino (talk) 23:41, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I hadn't noticed this ambiguity until now. You're quite right, it wasn't referred to as a Mythical Pokémon during the ORAS promotion. Granted, it isn't referred to as a Legendary either -- just "Pokémon Deoxys". I think it ought to be classified as a Mythical for the time being, if only because otherwise we might end up revisioning multiple Pokémon way too often (for all we know special "Episodes" that feature Mythical Pokémon might become a regular thing). However, a footnote for its special status is definitely needed, and we have to revisit its situation by the time the ORAS era is over and a new Deoxys event (or game inclusion) makes appearance.

Which Pokescrap page are you referring to, by the way? The definition used in the (now archived) page simply says that Mythical Pokémon aren't available during normal play of the games. It would be interesting if it was indeed explicitly mentioned somewhere that "no Mythical Pokémon are available in ORAS" as far as Deoxys's status is concerned. --Ash Pokemaster (talk) 06:25, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Ah, sorry; I was actually wrong (I couldn't find the page, so I was going from memory) - it doesn't explicitly state "in ORAS." Still, the promotion was for ORAS, and Deoxys has not been called Mythical since, so it should still be valid evidence, right?

Also, I'm not sure it'd be as hard as you say to fix it. I mean, if the official classification changes, we should fix it here, right? We add hundreds of pages whenever a new game comes out, so changing one Pokémon's classification wouldn't be unfeasible under the same circumstances (and even if it's mentioned in a lot of places, if we miss a page when altering it, anyone who comes across it can fix it - this isn't a one-person project or anything!). That said, we don't know what Deoxys IS considered right now, so I would be okay with holding off on changing it until we do. We should just definitely fix it as soon as we do know. XD EpicDeino (talk) 19:35, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

It seems you've assumed that Deoxys is no longer even a "Legendary", in addition to not being Mythical either. It seems to me pretty intuitive that Deoxys must be Legendary or Mythical (and definitely not neither), but in the meantime, Deoxys's inclusion under the Legendary Pokemon section of the official ORAS site should be proof enough that it is at least Legendary. Tiddlywinks (talk) 23:16, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

"Intuitive" is not the same as "fact," and, in fact, we even have a word. "counterintuitive," to illustrate the possibility of that difference. Assuming based on logic that Deoxys is Legendary is speculation, which, as far as I'm aware, isn't allowed here. This discussion shows that the Japanese site explicitly lists Deoxys as "other" and refers to it as neither Legendary nor Mythical. The "Legendary" Pokémon list is already wrong, with this page pointing out that all Legendary Pokémon can be obtained in-game, on the same site that has a page in the Legendary Pokémon section on the Mythical Pokémon Keldeo and Shaymin. I would personally say that what they actually say about it should take precedence over where they put it on the site. That said, I'm happy to discuss further, since there is conflicting information, as you have pointed out, and a lot of it is up in the air. (I wonder if Deoxys is going to become the new Phione in regards to debate. XD) EpicDeino (talk) 04:24, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

I would say, though, that if it flies so in the face of logic, you need pretty strong evidence to say something like Deoxys is neither Legendary nor Mythical (preferably more than just one little thing). As it happens, though, you have perhaps made a bad assumption about SnorlaxMonster's comment. While it is true that the Japanese ORAS site has a section for "Legendardy Pokemon" (伝説のポケモン), the fact that Deoxys is located under "Other" (その他) very much does not mean that Deoxys is neither Legendary nor Mythical, not when Mythical (幻の) is mentioned nowhere. I believe SnorlaxMonster in fact meant to say that since it's not listed under Legendary, they must consider Deoxys Mythical. In fact, if you look at that page now, you will see that Hoopa is also listed with Deoxys under "Other", so either they consider both of them Mythical or, as you assume, neither Mythical nor Legendary...despite the fact that Hoopa fits the supposed definition of Mythical to a tee. Tiddlywinks (talk) 06:12, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

I might be able to help with what I meant by my own comment. I wasn't trying to say that because Deoxys is intentionally not listed as a Legendary Pokémon that it is necessarily a Mythical Pokémon; I was simply saying that it heavily indicated that Deoxys is not a Legendary Pokémon. To my knowledge, no official material has referred to Deoxys as Mythical since the release of ORAS, but we also do not have any evidence that it has had its Mythical status revoked, so we should continue to list it as such. I didn't notice Hoopa was listed in the "Other" section too, but that certainly is interesting; however, the section is merely "Other", so it simply means that they do not fit into the other sections on the page, not that they are both Mythical or both not Mythical. --SnorlaxMonster 06:24, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

This survey strongly implies Deoxys is not a Mythical Pokémon. The question says "Which of these are your favorite Mythical Pokémon? (Choose your top 3.)", and includes every Mythical Pokémon, but not Phione or Deoxys.--SnorlaxMonster 11:20, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Just to state it plainly, it is still possible Deoxys is Legendary even though it does not appear anywhere else in the survey either, since there are other reliably "Legendary" Pokemon also missing (Mewtwo, Heatran, Kyurem, and Zygarde). Tiddlywinks (talk) 12:49, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Oh, I completely did misunderstand that comment. I'm sorry. >.< I genuinely thought it said Deoxys was neither Mythical nor Legendary; it wasn't so much an assumption as completely misreading. XD That said, shouldn't that site saying it's not Legendary (even if it doesn't mention being Mythical) and the aforementioned PokéScrap site saying it's not Mythical count as proof, even if they were separate? The PokéScrap site IS proof that the Mythical status was revoked, because it specifically says ALL Mythical Pokémon are unavailable, and Deoxys was available. EpicDeino (talk) 20:42, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

It's not proof Deoxys is neither. For my money, the Pokemon Company(/whatever) just doesn't really have its mind made up or doesn't want to make up/make known its mind on Deoxys's status, and/or there may also be some disconnect between English and Japanese branches or something. They need to paint a consistent and/or unambiguous picture, and until they do, IMO we need to avoid drawing conclusions from little, inconclusive hints. (And in the meantime, we should either consider Deoxys to provisionally have its previous status or to at least have the status that it logically deserves.) Tiddlywinks (talk) 21:07, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Just checked the survey you cited. It asked to pick your favorite Mythical Pokémon, and ALL Mythical Pokémon were listed. However, the Legendary Pokémon section was specifically for grouped Legendary Pokémon - it specifically says "pick your favorite pair" and "pick your favorite grouping." It never says that's every Legendary, and, in fact, it clearly says it's only counting ones that are pairs or groups. As such, the survey is reliable (although it doesn't prove Deoxys isn't Legendary - just that it's not Mythical). In contrast, it did say it was listing every Mythical Pokémon, so Deoxys (and, unrelatedly, Phione) are not counted. Can you provide any proof that it IS Mythical? Because right now, that's what we're calling it, yet even your own argument points only towards it either being Legendary if it is either, and its placement in "other" indicates that it's not Legendary. Please stop saying it deserves the status and therefore speculatively claiming it is "logically" Mythical. Speculation isn't permitted in the mainspace as far as I am aware.

I'm also aware it being "other" and not Legendary and it being available and not Mythical aren't conclusive individually. That's why I gave them both. Together, they DO prove that it is neither, because each proves that it can't be one of the two.

Also, they do seem to have made up their minds. I'm pretty sure you're just looking for an excuse to call it Mythical when it clearly isn't any more. EpicDeino (talk) 22:25, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

I never said that logically it is Mythical. I tried to say that it is not really logical that Deoxys would be classified as neither Legendary nor Mythical. (And beyond that, I don't really care which way Deoxys is classified, but there should be good proof behind whatever decision gets made.)

And that's the difference between you and I. You don't want to assume anything like that, and I think it is the height of folly to presume Deoxys wouldn't be counted either Legendary or Mythical. So when you see one place that implies Deoxys isn't Mythical and one that implies Deoxys isn't Legendary, you say, then it must be neither. Meanwhile, I see the same thing and just see contradicting implications and think everyone's not on the same page who should be (if they even know which page they want to be on, that is). And since all we have are implications, neither of us actually has anything approaching proof that Deoxys is X or Y or none of the above. For both of us, it makes sense, and there's nothing starkly clear enough to decide for us who is right.

That's why I said we need a clear statement from an official source. Until then, all our arguing about our interpretations of measly hints will get us precisely nowhere. Tiddlywinks (talk) 02:21, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Addendum: we've also forgotten the official ORAS English site I mentioned above. On the one hand, we have the official Japanese site that has a section for "Legendaries" but elects to include Deoxys under "Other" (implying Deoxys is not "Legendary"), while on the other, we have the official English site where Deoxys is included in the Legendary Pokemon section. If that's not a strong indication that someones somewhere are not on the same page, about one thing or another, I don't know what is. Tiddlywinks (talk) 02:31, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

The Japanese information is not contradictory. If we're explicitly told that it's not Legendary and then explicitly told that it's not Mythical, that doesn't mean "one of them must be wrong," which is speculation, but that, given what we have, it is not Legendary or Mythical.

The English site's categorization can't be taken into account because it is already wrong (as I explained, Keldeo and Shaymin prove that it's already not accurate considering other statements also on the English site), but that's the only one we can prove is wrong. There is, therefore, not hinting but confirmation from the only sources we can't prove are wrong, that Deoxys is neither, and only information from a source I have proven is wrong to indicate that it might be one of them.

Even so, since, clearly, it IS still debatable, I would honestly suggest doing it like Phione, because the situation is exactly the same, with official sources seemingly contradicting one another; we could list points like "it used to be Mythical and no Pokémon has been demoted before," "even if it is no longer event-only, it should transition to Legendary instead of being normal" and "the English site lists it as Legendary" and whatever else you can think of for pro-Legendary or Mythical status and "the Japanese site has stated in an Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire promotion that only event-only Pokémon are Mythical, a requirement which Deoxys no longer meets," "the Japanese site has listed it as non-Legendary, indicating that it is neither Mythical nor Legendary," and "the reliability of its placement on the English site is questionable due to the already-contradictory information in it, with Shaymin and Keldeo being classified as Legendary despite another statement on the site claiming that all Legendary Pokémon are obtainable in Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire" for against. This would be completely true - it IS under debate - and it's the only way to accurately represent both sides in the article. Sound like an adequate compromise? EpicDeino (talk) 02:54, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

(resetting indent)I think you're being needlessly uptight about Keldeo/Shaymin and the statement that "all Legendary Pokémon can be obtained in-game". (I say this realizing that the same could perhaps be said about my conviction that Deoxys must be either Legendary or Mythical. =P ) There are reasonable explanations why they're included in the Legendary Pokemon section. They could easily consider Mythical and Legendary Pokemon similar enough, and/or consider it too much of a hassle to make a whole separate Mythical section, that including them under Legendary is good enough for most users (perhaps not for at least one, plainly =P ). In any case, the Legendary section is still plainly the section for Legendary or Mythical Pokemon. You're taking it too far when you try to dismiss it entirely as any sort of evidence about Deoxys' status.

"One source must be wrong" is no more speculation than "Deoxys is neither Legendary nor Mythical". Both fly in the face of plain facts (plain "statements" by different sources vs all of Deoxys's Legendary- or Mythical-like characteristics). They are in fact both reasonable conclusions, that simply differ as a result of placing different value on different pieces of evidence.

I am loath to say Deoxys should be treated anything like Phione. (But I wouldn't stop it if people think it should be.) Someone else can comment on that. Tiddlywinks (talk) 04:01, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

If I would say, I'd say that make a conclusion based on 2 sources with different languages (wait, is the survey available in other language, too?) is not what we should always do, because of the localization or something (I don't know why, but the survey even says Dialga, Palkia and Giratina are a pair).

About the Shaymin/Keldeo page, it clearly says "Change Two Mythical Pokémon!" and "The Mythical Pokémon Shaymin and Keldeo can change their appearance...", so I agree that it weird when you said about all Legendary can be obtain in ORAS (also, "between XY and ORAS", not "in ORAS"). And after all, maybe it's not so unreliable like you said, maybe it just whoever at TPC categorize the site thinks that "Mythical" is a subset category of "Legendary" (like what I always thought before last week).

And about treating Deoxys like Phione, I think we should just write the debates in the trivia sections (at both this page and Deoxys's page) as normal. I think it's not worth making things as serious as Phione. We should ask more people about this. --Yen01 (talk) 04:56, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

If other Pokémon that we know aren't Legendary are in the section, it can't be used as evidence that something else in it is Legendary, regardless of what you speculate they may have been thinking - they made an error in a nearly identical situation, and without verification, we can't be sure that Deoxys' placement isn't another, and we certainly can't use it as proof of anything. I'm not being "uptight" about it; it's an error and the source can't be used for proof if it contains other false information. We can put a trivia point saying "Deoxys was called Legendary on the ORAS website" like how we mention the errors in spelling Jessie's name by different sources. That said, again, it is debated, with conflicting official sources. Which really is the same as Phione, minus the fact that Deoxys has fan-designated traits associated with Legendary Pokémon and Phione has fan-designated traits associated with non-Mythical Pokémon. Deoxys' status is debated and there is conflict between official sources. You've said so yourself. Phione's status is also debated and there is conflict between official sources. Why is Deoxys' situation different from Phione's and why should they be treated differently?

Yen01, I did mean between XY and ORAS. Didn't realize I only mentioned ORAS in that retelling of the information. Sorry! Also, I'm not using sources from different languages. Both of the sources I presented were Japanese; other people were bringing up the survey and the English site, but I've been using a consistent language when bringing up new points, and going only by the sources from one language, I have explained why Deoxys is not Legendary and not Mythical. EpicDeino (talk) 05:20, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Don't try to downplay the commonalities among Legendary and/or Mythical Pokemon by calling them "fan-designated". They are not, as that implies, made up by fans. It doesn't matter if no official source has explicitly defined those characteristics in writing; they don't need to. They have manifestly created those "Legendary" and "Mythical" Pokemon and/or the games such that those Pokemon have common characteristics that are readily identifiable by anyone moderately familiar with the games. That is not "fan-designated", that's just being observant. Tiddlywinks (talk) 06:32, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

All pseudo-Legendaries were dual-typed and that was considered not only an observation, but a rule. Then Goodra came. Pseudo-Legendary is referred to not only as a fan term but a flexible one despite being a pattern of Pokémon specifically designed to have common characteristics readily identifiable by most fans. "Being observant" and using basic logic to solve something like this is speculation and assumption, which, no matter how obvious it is, can't be put on Bulbapedia. This is a site that still doesn't consider Zygarde a member of the Mortality Trio because it's not confirmed. Deoxys' status as Legendary or Mythical is, as of ORAS, just as inconclusive as Phione's, and no amount of your opinion on what makes a Pokémon "deserve" the status can change that. EpicDeino (talk) 06:56, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

I think the English site including Deoxys and Mythical Pokémon under "Legendary Pokémon" can just be marked down to an error; we have ample evidence that Legendary and Mythical Pokémon are mutually-exclusive groups from both English and Japanese sources.

"pseudo-Legendary" is a fan term to describe a pattern in Pokémon. I had always argued that "dual-typed" was merely a coincidence and not a critical part of the pattern. Regardless, they were never officially defined as a group, so their parameters were always fan-designated, whereas "Mythical Pokémon" has been officially defined. The two are not comparable.

I think it's entirely reasonable to handle Deoxys like Phione at present. Both are permitted in the upcoming "Circle of Legends" tournament, which only permits Legendary and Mythical Pokémon, despite us having conflicting evidence about their status as Mythical Pokémon. --SnorlaxMonster 08:03, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

You are as wrong as it is possible to be that I am speculating, EpicDeino. I am indeed assuming, but so are you and so is anyone who won't just shrug and say "I don't know". Lacking an explicit and unambiguous statement one way or another, that's all it is possible to do, in the end; look at all your evidence, weigh it, and draw your own, personal conclusion/opinion. You're no more special than I in that regard. Tiddlywinks (talk) 09:06, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Snorlax, I meant in regards to Legendary Pokémon. I know Mythical has fixed criteria. Sorry; it wasn't clear in that post, but when I said "fan-designated traits associated with non-Mythical Pokémon," I meant things like breedability that weren't official criteria and people were just assuming. I have mentioned the official distinction between Mythical and normal previously, and was trying (albeit very vaguely) to illustrate the point that any requirements that are fan-designated (that is, anything else) aren't actually relevant.

I am also aware that pseudo-Legendary is a fan group, and I was comparing the fact that fans claim that pattern is deliberate on Game Freak's part and entirely consistent to the fact that they also claim that the traits shared by Legendary Pokémon (which are, unlike Mythical Pokémon, really only bound by official statement of their status - there is no official statement of the traits that "make" a Legendary) are deliberate on Game Freak's part and entirely consistent, the latter of which was being used to say that Deoxys "deserved" the status more than Phione and being used as an argument against treating them similarly.

Tiddlywinks, may I ask why you claim I'm acting as if I'm "special?" You have cited fan-designated "rules" for Legendaries - and I've explained why fan-designated "rules" have changed in the past for other patterns that fans picked up on by being "observant" - and said "it deserves the status" and that it seems "intuitive" that it would be one of them, both of which are blatantly opinionated, along with citing exactly one source. You've also repeatedly disregarded the statements that I've made, saying that they are "contradictory" when they go hand in hand with one another and are from a consistent and accurate source, and that they prove nothing simply because they prove the two halves of the point separately rather than simultaneously... which means absolutely nothing about their validity. You've also said I'm being "needlessly uptight" about a factual error that conclusively proves a source's unreliability, then provided yet more speculation in the form of your idea of why the error might have happened, as if that makes it any less of an error. Common mistake ≠ not a mistake. Understandable mistake ≠ not a mistake. In contrast to all of your speculation, assumptions and allegedly "logical" statements that contradict facts, I've exclusively cited actual evidence and used no opinionated statements as reasoning, and I have proven - repeatedly - that the only source of real evidence you have brought up is unreliable. Despite this, I'm still trying to settle for the lesser option of acknowledging the debate on the page and treating it like Phione instead of trying to press my own stance, which seems to be what the majority of official evidence points towards, and having the page flat-out state that it's not Legendary or Mythical as I originally desired. There is still no proof that it is Legendary or Mythical, except for one categorization in a list that is already erroneous and therefore unreliable, while there is conclusive proof from a separate source that does not actively contradict itself. I still fail to see why you think your argument holds as much weight as mine, let alone that I must see myself as "special" - a case of ad hominem that has nothing to do with the argument, which is often frowned upon in the average debate almost as much as saying that the fact that it's not Legendary and the fact that it's not Mythical don't prove that it isn't Legendary or Mythical (how can something not be Legendary or Mythical, but... still be one of those things?) - for not being totally sold on the opinions, factually invalid "logic," patterns and invalid sources you've used to present your case. Just saying. EpicDeino (talk) 10:46, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

You're misunderstanding me greatly if you think I want to treat Deoxys unfairly. I never said that Doexys and Phione should not be treated similarly. I only said that I am (very much personally/selfishly) loath to endorse treating Deoxys like Phione. I very explicitly meant to leave open the possibility that it was/is the right thing to do; however, *I* simply did not want to be the one to validate that. The sole reason for that sentiment is that I would much rather have a solid answer than endorse another "Well, gee, we're not really sure, so let us show you a bunch of bits and pieces of info, and just have a think on it yourself..." in the mainspace. But, as I said, if it is the right thing to do, then I have no intention of gainsaying that; of insisting that Deoxys be treated "unfairly".

My quandry comes down to this... I don't think it should be radical to say that it would be a drastic action to officially strip a Legendary or Mythical Pokemon of those titles. (I really don't care if you think this is "just" opinion.) Given that, I think it is unconscionable to claim that this is what happened without a very explicit and unambiguous statement that that is exactly the case. We do not have that.

There did used to be a Mailbag. Is there no way to ask someone officially now whether Deoxys is officially a Legendary, or a Mythical, or perhaps neither?

Also, FWIW, "You're no more special than I", i.e., "You and I are basically equals" is not ad hominem. I just wrote it that way for a bit of (I feel) poetic flair or something. I think if you read it consistently with my statement there, it should come off as just saying "Hey, we both have opinions, and it's natural for you to think you're right, but please don't try to say I'm being wildly unreasonable (i.e., speculating)." I don't care if you think I am unreasonable (i.e., reasoning wrong), because I certainly think you are in places, but I think that to label my reasoning speculation is, itself, unreasonable. =P

(I could also try to state more clearly now why I'm reasonable—to answer your questions above of why I'm seeming to be "illogical"—but I really don't like long talk page posts and it really isn't sounding like I'm going to convince you of the merits of my arguments, or even that my logic is "logical" and not just opinion or speculation, so I kind of think it's pointless.) Tiddlywinks (talk) 17:11, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Oh yeah, as SnorlaxMonster mentioned above: "Both [Deoxys and Phione] are permitted in the upcoming "Circle of Legends" tournament, which only permits Legendary and Mythical Pokémon". Is that good enough for you? Tiddlywinks (talk) 17:27, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

"Phione is a usable Pokémon in the recently announced Rotation Battle tournament Circle of Legends where only Legendary and Mythical Pokémon are allowed." That's already mentioned on Phione's page - in the "evidence for" section, which, along with the "evidence against" section, still exists in Trivia in spite of this evidence. Bulbapedia has clearly deemed it insufficient proof for Phione, so it's insufficient proof for Deoxys. The "other" section of Phione's page also points out "Originally, Phione was not needed in order to complete the National Pokédex, as with other Mythical Pokémon. However, beginning with Pokémon X and Y, it is needed to qualify for the diploma." This is the same as Deoxys. It also mentions the mailbag, which not only changed its answer and therefore wasn't even included to favor a specific side, but nothing like which currently exists as far as I know. Not an option right now. From the survey and the Pokédex, we know it's not Mythical, so that just leaves the dispute between Legendary and neither. You've cited the Circle of Legends tournament - which is still being listed on the page as part of the dispute and not conclusive evidence in Phione's case - against the Japanese official site - which has not been proven unreliable, either, and should be considered equal. Two conflicting sources. Notice, also, that most of Phione's evidence is from different games. Deoxys has only had one game since the conflict started, so it makes sense that there would be less evidence, but an official source outside of games (the guide in Phione's case and the Japanese site in Deoxys') and the Circle of Legends tournament (for both) contradict each other in the same way. So, Deoxys is not Mythical - we even have in-game proof - and we have conflicting evidence from official sources that contradict each other on whether or not they were Legendary. Still in the same scenario as Phione. If you don't want to "be the one to endorse" that they should be treated the same, why? There's equal evidence for both sides. The scenario is the same - you're just saying that you personally don't want them to be treated the same regardless, simply because you'd rather have a clear official statement - which we don't have right now and can't get. When and if we get official confirmation of exactly what Deoxys is, we can change the page to say so. But Phione hasn't gotten that after eight years of being around, so that's utterly absurd - we cannot wait until something that may never happen before we address the fact that a Pokémon now listed as Mythical is NOT Mythical (that much, at least, hasn't been argued against once in this entire debate, and that is what the page currently falsely states), is either Legendary or normal and that there is conflicting evidence between official sources as to which of the two possibilities it is. This is no different from Phione. And while Deoxys may have less evidence, it has less for both sides, because the dispute hasn't existed for as long.

Side note: Yes, "you're no more special than I" does mean "you and I are equals." It also, unlike the presented alternative, contains many implications that are not only rude but, in this scenario, false (unless you care to explain why they're true, which the bottom of your post suggests you don't plan on doing) - "you're no more special than I" clearly states that the other person thinks he or she is more special carries the implication that they're acting in a biased (which more accurately describes some of your arguments, such as "it deserves the status"), entitled, or otherwise narcissistic or selfish manner. They have the same meaning, but "you're no more special than I" has much harsher (and, yes, insulting) connotations. It's not "poetic;" it's rude.

Last thing: how is it unreasonable for me to call your speculation what it is? I'll gladly admit I'm wrong if you explain why I am.

There's no valid reason not to simply treat it like Phione when the only proof you have is shared by Phione and the alternative you've requested isn't possible right now. EpicDeino (talk) 22:57, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

You are having considerable trouble understanding me, when I thought I was being very clear. Read this and take it to heart, please: I am NOT trying to push that Deoxys should not be treated like Phione. I do not claim that there is conclusive evidence of anything for Deoxys. Please stop writing as if I am. I will ignore anything else from you for now until I believe you understand me on this. Thank you. Tiddlywinks (talk) 01:06, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

You explicitly stated that despite not being against the idea, you refused to endorse it in favor of waiting for an official statement. I explained in my post why that's probably not an option.

Second, "Oh yeah, as SnorlaxMonster mentioned above: "Both [Deoxys and Phione] are permitted in the upcoming "Circle of Legends" tournament, which only permits Legendary and Mythical Pokémon". Is that good enough for you?" Considering that this was in the same post that you said you wanted to deal with the issue when we got an official statement, this sounded an awful lot like an attempt at proving it was conclusively Legendary, particularly the last sentence. I only reacted to exactly what you said here.

Third, you're now using "I'm going to ignore you" as a way to avoid the other part of my post: you still haven't explained how the majority of your argument was anything but speculation, with your statements of "it deserves it," "it has common traits of Legendaries" and the like being absolutely opinionated and your previous insistence that people weren't on the same page and the evidence I presented was void when two pieces of evidence that didn't contradict one another supported the opposite side simply because you thought it must be an error for Deoxys not to be Legendary or Mythical after defending a source I criticized for already being wrong about something. You can't say I'm the one being biased and acting entitled or "special" when you have previously - in this same debate - tried to ignore perfectly valid evidence because it contradicted what you wanted at that point in the argument. EpicDeino (talk) 03:10, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

1)You seem to believe here that it is critical that you convince me of this, as if I am somehow stopping you or anyone else. Let me repeat myself: I take no part in that decision, in any way. (If you think I have, you mistake me.) Decide it with others (or yourself).

2) I'm sorry if it sounded like I thought it was a conclusive, official statement. That's not really the case. What I meant was, you had denounced the other things I had attempted to give you as valid evidence that Deoxys was Legendary or Mythical (either you think I'm speculating or you think it's unreliable); so, would you consider the tournament a valid piece of evidence that Deoxys is Legendary or Mythical? (I don't ask you to be convinced that Deoxys is Legendary or Mythical. I'm only asking that you recognize it as validly contradicting the conclusion you've held so far (when you've so far claimed that nothing I've brought up can), that Deoxys is neither Legendary nor Mythical; a smidgen of reasonable doubt, in short.)

3) Understand that "It has common traits of Legendaries" (Deoxys and indisputably Legendary Pokemon share certain traits that other Pokemon (not counting Mythicals) do not have) is not opinion, it is fact. What you mean is, you do not accept that there are any traits (short of officially being given the title) that define a Legendary Pokemon. Which is fine. But it does not mean Deoxys does not have those traits. Those commonalities cannot be wished away; the only point where you have choice (opinion) is in the conclusion you make from them. (FWIW, you also throw out a quote of me of "It deserves it" like it's something separate, but that's actually squarely based on Deoxys' Legendary traits. ...The rest, I can't really bring anything new to. I have explained and you've rejected; I'm comfortable with it being a simple difference of opinion.) Tiddlywinks (talk) 04:19, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

(Resetting indent.) 1) Okay. I just figured I might as well explain it anyway, since the purpose of this discussion is to get a consensus and you said you would prefer an official statement even though that's not an option. 2) Ah, sorry for misunderstanding. Then yes, that is a valid point that should definitely be brought up somewhere (after all, it is with Phione). 3) My dispute with that quote was more or less that I interpreted what you were saying as making it off as some kind of "rule" when other patterns that fans claimed were deliberate and consistent later changed. But considering your last post, I do understand your stance and... basically don't think there's anything to argue with you about any more? I apologize for misunderstanding some of your statements and probably coming off as rude in how I reacted to them (especially given that I was wrong in the first place). Thank you for the clarification! EpicDeino (talk) 05:36, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

You're welcome. =) Tiddlywinks (talk) 06:05, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm adding a little thing to this discussion: ORAS take place in another dimension/universe/whatever, right? Well, in that dimension Deoxys is Legendary, while in the previous one it's Mythical. This is only a possible explanation of the vague classification we have now from Game Freak/TPC, it should by no means be included in any page, but I thought it could be interesting to add to your conversation. In this way, there is no "change of classification" from Mythical to Legendary (or "other"): it simply is another world with its own classification. Shepeedy (talk) 22:25, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

I all but laughed out loud when I happened to notice this... It turns out that Deoxys is actually explicitly called a "Mythical Pokemon" in-game. I'm not sure if there are any Youtube videos that explicitly show this, but if you return to the second floor of the Mossdeep Space Center after clearing the Delta Episode, there's a small dialogue event where it happens. If you look up the text dump, you can see it there, or of course you can test it yourself directly in-game.

IMO, if they've said it explicitly in-game (perhaps especially if it's in-game), then Deoxys is Mythical, even if the supposed definition of "Mythical" seems to contradict that classification. (I kind of think that in order to contradict this, TPC/whatever might have to either explicitly state that Deoxys is "not a Mythical Pokemon" or they'll have to explicitly say/show that Deoxys is Legendary (or common) with some consistency.) Tiddlywinks (talk) 19:40, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

This is the quote for future reference:

"Extrapolating from the energy readings we observed seems to show evidence of the Mythical Pokémon that lives in space: Deoxys."

And in the Japanese version:

「われわれの　かんそくした エネルギーは　から　すいそく　するに それは　うちゅうに　せいそく　すると　いわれる まぼろしの　ポケモン―――デオキシス」

The only other times the word Mythical is used in ORAS is during the Diancie Pokémon Center event and in the Volcanion TV specials. Legendary is only used in ORAS to refer to Kyogre, Groudon, Rayquaza, someone's wife, when you have more than three in your party for a competition, and in the Pokédex entries for the birds, tao trio, and Yveltal. --Abcboy (talk) 21:34, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Pfft, wow. I cannot believe I didn't know about that.

Well, I'm kind of embarrassed right now. XD I can't exactly argue with the game itself explicitly stating that it's Mythical, so... Yeah, I guess it is. :'D EpicDeino (talk) 02:30, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

More?

Is there some logic that with some legendary pokemon there are more than one in anime(for example: Latios, Lugia), and with some only one (Mew, Tornados)? Lokki (talk), 19:38, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

No legendary is unique. Think about it. If it were unique, if one dies, the species goes extinct. That should have happened a long time ago if they were unique. We haven't seen ALL of Dialga's or Palkia's dimensions, either. Same goes for Giratina and Arceus. We have only seen small sections of them. For all we know, these dimensions could have thousands or even MILLIONS of their respective species. And of course, there are multiple Mews: One flies throughout the world, while another is at the Tree of Beginning. For Mewtwo, both fly around the world. One has a more woman-like voice, and that one can Mega Evolve. I could go on all day, naming all the legendaries and saying why we know there is multiple, but I'm getting bored of typing this. TheRealArceus (talk) 16:47, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

This discussion is more suited for the forums, so please take it over there.--ForceFire 23:26, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Is Zygarde a Member of the Mortality Duo?(Therefore making it the Mortality Trio)

Look at it this way. Kyurem was the final member of the Tao trio. Giratina was the final member of the Creation Trio and Rayquaza was the trump card in the Weather Trio. If Game Freak has taught me anything its that the same formula works most of the time.PastureGaiPokemon12 (talk) 23:04:18 7 August,2015(UTC)

There's nothing that actually calls it a member of the Mortality Duo, therefore it is not listed as such. Litwick96 20:33, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

It most definitely is, considering the clues and patterns seen before, so it's pretty blatantly obvious that Zygarde is most definitely in a trio with Xerneas and Yveltal. I will say that it definitely fits the pattern with Rayquaza, Giratina, and Kyurem, and there are a few clues with Zygarde being related to Xerneas and Yveltal. That being said, even though the clues make it obvious that Zygarde is related to Xerneas and Yveltal, it's not explicitly stated in X and Y and is therefore unconfirmed, which is why it is not listed as being in a trio with Xerneas and Yveltal. So in short, wait until we get an announcement of the inevitable Pokemon Z before we do anything with listing Zygarde as being in a trio with Xerneas and Yveltal. ScraftyIsTheBest (talk) 01:31, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Zygarde is known as the Order Pokemon while Xerneas and Yveltal are Peace and Chaos respectively (I think), Its like Rayquaza all over again. Balance is needed so we have Zygarde.(talk)

Unless it is explicitly stated, Zygarde is not part of any trio. Yes, it's quite obvious, but we have no official confirmation (from the game or the anime) that it is part of a trio. Giratina was not considered part of a trio until Platinum was released, Kyurem was not considered part of a trio until Black2/White2 were released. So it's the same situation here, we will have to wait for a game to be released that will confirm its relation with Xerneas/Yveltal.--ForceFire 03:23, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

There does seem to be some official evidence pointing towards them being a trio. Specifically:

• I haven't played Rumble World in a while, so this is from someone else, but apparently you need to get all three of them to unlock a Title, in exactly the same manner as every other Legendary Trio. (For reference, this Title is "Aura Traveler"). This is the strongest piece of evidence in that an actual game, albeit a side game, explicitly considers them a trio. and, in doing so, affects actual gameplay. Other trios (Super-Ancient Pokémon, Creation Trio, and Tao Trio at the very least) are treated exactly the same as this trio.
• CoroCoro explicitly compares Zygarde to Xerneas and Yveltal in the latest issue. Although it is only in terms of power, they singled out those two even though plenty of other Legendaries have exactly the same stat total. This is fairly tenuous, but they explicitly compared it to the very two Pokémon already considered a trio in Rumble World.
• All three have Aura-based Abilities, and Zygarde's directly interacts with those of Xerneas and Yveltal.

Not sure how much of a difference this makes, but considering actual in-game ties between exclusively Zygarde and Xerneas or Yveltal (their Abilities), comparisons between this trio and only this trio in CoroCoro, and an actual game considers them a trio, I think that it's been officially confirmed and not being made up by fans. EpicDeino (talk) 23:23, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Hello? I don't even care if the answer is yes or no, but there needs to be an answer. Bulbapedia's policy is that we're not allowed to change the page until discussion, and apparently even the fact that nobody is presenting a counterargument isn't enough, so people need to discuss whether they agree or not or nothing is ever going to get done. So... BUMPing this? (Is that the right term here?) EpicDeino (talk) 00:23, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

ForceFire's response above still applies. In short: just wait. Tiddlywinks (talk) 03:05, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

It is pretty obvious, besides it will likely be confirmed by early or late next year.Animaltamer707:29, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

ForceFire's response said to wait until we have proof. Rumble World recognizes them as a trio. How is that not proof

Again, I'm fine if that's not good enough, but at least respond to the evidence instead of saying a post from before there was any whatsoever that said to wait until there was any whatsoever still applies. Right now, evidence for consists of a side game and evidence against consists of "there is no evidence for," which is currently no longer true, although admittedly Rumble World IS relatively minor even if it is in-game proof. EpicDeino (talk) 09:02, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

From what you wrote above, it sounds like Rumble World only implies they're a trio. If Rumble World's treatment of trios is not something that they have plainly said, "This is something we will only do for trios", it does not amount to proof, it is only supportive evidence. We need something explicit (clear, unarguable, unopinionated). Tiddlywinks (talk) 09:30, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

(reset indent)As Tiddly said it only implies, until something from CoroCoro or any official source has confirmation that they are a trio (which again is obvious) it should be left unchanged.Animaltamer711:37, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

"a set or group of three people or things."

How does grouping them and only them together for an achievement only "imply" that they are a group? We can always take it off if there's any counterevidence, but we legitimately have them as a group in a game. EpicDeino (talk) 04:42, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Just be patient.Animaltamer704:58, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

We're not talking about just "groups". A "group" does not a "trio" make (not all by itself). Trios are a special relationship, and nothing so far has plainly testified to such a relationship.

You missed a very important point in my previous response: "If Rumble World's treatment of trios is not something that they have plainly said, 'This is something we will only do for trios', it does not amount to proof". Right now, you are ASSUMING that because they are grouped, that means they must be a Legendary Trio. But in truth, you have not shown that being in that group MUST mean they are a Legendary trio; you have only shown that it is reasonable. That is not sufficient. Tiddlywinks (talk) 05:21, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

First: I just gave the actual definition of trio. If they are a group of exactly three, they are a trio, and Rumble World makes it clear that they are a group of three.

Second: Have the others even been called Legendary Trios? We say it's "reasonable" to group Dialga, Palkia and Giratina because they're all Sinnoh mascots. But are they officially called Legendary Trios? Last I checked, that's not even an official term.

So I honestly don't know why having identical treatment to every other thing we group as a Legendary Trio is insufficient. Nor why people keep saying "be patient" as if I'm just saying "it's logical, why don't you idiots see it" without providing in-game proof that they are a group. (And yes, I've seen people say that and people have responded in exactly the same way. You're missing the fact that YES, I'm providing PROOF that EXPLICITLY considers them a trio. A trio that is made of Legendaries. How does that "not a Legendary trio make?") EpicDeino (talk) 05:12, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

All I feel capable of saying anymore is...just wait. Staff fairly plainly don't intend to acknowledge it yet. (Plainly enough, they're waiting for "Pokemon Z", or, as ForceFire said, something in the anime.) So. If there is any chance anyone can persuade you anymore, I imagine it will have to be staff. Sorry I wasn't able to shed enough light on things. Tiddlywinks (talk) 06:00, 25 October 2015 (UTC)