Talk:Paradox Pokémon

Hey, I have a proposition in regards to Iron Valiant. It, being the version exclusive counterpart to Roaring Moon, is also in fact also based on the Mega Evolved forms of Gallade and Gardevoir. This is evident since: -It has white arms like both megas -The white "gloves", "puffed out dress" part and more circular green part of the head like Mega Gardevoir. -The arms have the same pink blades as Mega Gallade. Just an observation I felt worth mentioning! (Galarian Guy (talk) 09:20, 23 November 2022 (UTC))

I think the scrutinizing focus on color is a poor indication, considering many of the other Paradoxes don't match exact colors either. All of the 'Iron' Paradoxes also only use a single color for their energy-based body-parts, so Valiant is naturally restricted to pink if it wants to use energy blades.

If you look closely, Valiant shares far more distinctive traits with their base forms than their Mega forms:

- The shape of its head-crest matches regular Gallade's, rather than the curvier crest of M.Gallade.

- The shape of its ears is closer to regular Gardevoir than M.Gardevoir.

- The way its skirt opens at the front and the green underside match regular Gardevoir. The 'poofiness' is more likely a result of the mechanization of its skirt (since you can't exactly have mechanical cloth), and they would've made the skirt more prominent if they were emulating M.Gardevoir.

- The spike in its chest doesn't match either Mega (M.Gardevoir has two spikes while M.Gallade has a short nub). --KyoPa (talk) 13:54, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

The shape of it's "ear" spikes also match with Mega Gallade and I think it's fair to say the two main features of the arm blades and poofy dress are more than enough considering Salamence only has the wing shape going for it. I really believe that it's based off of the mega like Roaring Moon, or you could argue that Roaring Moon has aspects of both Salamence's base form and mega, which Iron Valiant does too. I wouldn't have said anything if I didn't think it was worth including since the trivia also states Salamence is the only one based off of a mega. You really can't ignore those pink arm blades and poofy "dress", just like you can't ignore Roaring Moon's crescent wings, it's the shape of the features that convinces me personally. (Galarian Guy (talk) 14:30, 23 November 2022 (UTC))

Not only that but they also share the sum of their base stats. I'm sure everyone agrees that Iron Valiant is more closely related to Mega forms of Gardevoir and Gallade.--Rocket Grunt 16:32, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

The sum of stats is irrelevant. All it proves is that they're version-counterparts, not whether they share the same design process. The fact that Iron Valiant is based on two Pokemon already disproves that. Iron Valiant also lacks distinctive traits that are unique to the Megas alone. Arm-blades and skirts are not exclusive to the Megas.

Regular Gallade has arm-blades too, and the simpler single-pointed design also better matches Iron Valiant's blades. The pink color is irrelevant if it lacks the unique features of M.Gallade's blades, because as mentioned before, the 'Iron' Paradoxes only possess a single energy-color (hence Iron Moth's orange eyes, Iron Hands's yellow palms, Iron Bundle's blue belly-button, etc.).

Likewise, regular Gardevoir has a skirt too. The open-faced arrangement of the skirt, along with the green inner-lining, are clearly referencing regular Gardevoir's skirt. It's also far from what I'd call 'poofy' if it was supposed to be based on M.Gardevoir's dress. The skirt still retains a fairly slender 'cone' shape, rather than the 'dome' shape of M.Gardevoir's skirt. All it has is the roundness of the individual skirt-plates (which is a distinctly different aspect from the 'roundness' of the overall skirt as a whole), which as also mentioned, is likely a by-product of mechanization (like Iron Moth's wings).

Also, Roaring Moon's Violet Dex entry implicitly references its connection to Mega Evolution, while neither of Iron Valiant's entries has any sort of implications.--KyoPa (talk) 17:38, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Iron Valiant arms are pink like on Mega Gallade, and the "dress" is umbrella shape like in Mega Gardevoir. There's no element suggesting it being based on regular forms over mega forms.--Rocket Grunt 18:10, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

As I've repeatedly stated, color is one of the least distinct aspect of the 'Iron' Paradoxes. Regular Gardevoir's skirt is also 'umbrella'-like in nature. That is not unique to Mega Gardevoir. Likewise, as I repeatedly stated; the arrangement, the inner-lining, and the overall conic shape of the dress as a whole favor regular Gardevoir more than its Mega.

As for elements suggesting regular forms, I've stated them repeatedly. There's the aforementioned details of the dress. The head-crest is a straight vertical edge like regular Gallade's (as opposed to the curved crescent edge of M.Gallade's head-crest). The spike in its chest is different from either Mega.--KyoPa (talk) 18:17, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

You can't claim that pink color was chosen randomly for this Paradox Pokemon and happened to reflect Mega Gallade's design. Also, Gardevoir's dress is cone-like, while Iron Valiant and Mega Gardevoir's dress is umbrella-shaped, not to mention it's only on the back for Iron Valaint just like in Mega Gallade.--Rocket Grunt 18:26, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

I never said the color was random. Just that it's irrelevant as a design indication. Evidently, the pink was inspired by the color of the original Pokemon(s)'s chest-spike and eyes, and then used as the overall energy-color for the Paradox; similar to the other 'Iron' Paradoxes, like how Iron Hands's yellow is based on Hariyama's skirt. However, like how yellow is applied to parts of Iron Hands that doesn't match Hariyama (like the eyes, palms, feet, etc.), the other areas where the pink is applied (like Iron Valiant's feet, dress, and blades) is irrelevant to the color-scheme of the original Pokemon.

M.Gallade happened to also follow this process of reapplying color-accents in other areas, but correlation does not imply causation. After all, where did the red color of M.Gallade's arm-blades come from in the first place? Regular Gallade's red-accents. In the first place, there's not a wide range of colors to the Ralts-family (white, green, red/pink). There will naturally be overlaps. If you don't want overlaps, you would have to either ban Iron Valiant from using the color red, or ban it from using energy-blades (both of which are stupid ideas).

If by 'umbrella' you mean dome-shaped, Iron Valiant's dress is far more conic than dome-shaped. You're misguided by the roundness of the individual skirt-plates, rather than the overall skirt. The overall shape is conic; at most, I'll concede with egg-shaped. However, it's definitely not dome-shaped like M.Gardevoir's. You're also ignoring all of the details of the dress itself (green inner-lining, the opened face of the front area), and ignoring all of the other details I've mentioned.

Iron Valiant

I don't think Iron Valiant is based on both Gardevoir and Gallade. Going off how Roaring Moon is based on mega Salamanca but is not completely identical to it. The same thing can be said of Iron Valiant being based of the design of mega Gallade. With the arm blade and two cape-like protrusions similar to mega Gallade. But with it having some differences like the chest spike. I really don't think they would want to base it off two Pokémon.- unsigned comment from Waldo32 (talk • contribs)

There's no other way to explain why it has Gardevoir's back hair-curls.--Rocket Grunt 16:32, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

It is based off of both Gardevoir and Gallade as it is Gallade's arm blades + Gardevoir's skirt. The typing is also both Gardevoir and Gallade's secondary typings respectively. Frozen Fennec 16:35, 23 November 2022 (UTC)