Talk:Paradox Pokémon

Iron Valiant prop

Hey, I have a proposition in regards to Iron Valiant. It, being the version exclusive counterpart to Roaring Moon, is also in fact also based on the Mega Evolved forms of Gallade and Gardevoir. This is evident since: -It has white arms like both megas -The white "gloves", "puffed out dress" part and more circular green part of the head like Mega Gardevoir. -The arms have the same pink blades as Mega Gallade. Just an observation I felt worth mentioning! (Galarian Guy (talk) 09:20, 23 November 2022 (UTC))

I think the scrutinizing focus on color is a poor indication, considering many of the other Paradoxes don't match exact colors either. All of the 'Iron' Paradoxes also only use a single color for their energy-based body-parts, so Valiant is naturally restricted to pink if it wants to use energy blades.

If you look closely, Valiant shares far more distinctive traits with their base forms than their Mega forms:

- The shape of its head-crest matches regular Gallade's, rather than the curvier crest of M.Gallade.

- The shape of its ears is closer to regular Gardevoir than M.Gardevoir.

- The way its skirt opens at the front and the green underside match regular Gardevoir. The 'poofiness' is more likely a result of the mechanization of its skirt (since you can't exactly have mechanical cloth), and they would've made the skirt more prominent if they were emulating M.Gardevoir.

- The spike in its chest doesn't match either Mega (M.Gardevoir has two spikes while M.Gallade has a short nub). --KyoPa (talk) 13:54, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

The shape of it's "ear" spikes also match with Mega Gallade and I think it's fair to say the two main features of the arm blades and poofy dress are more than enough considering Salamence only has the wing shape going for it. I really believe that it's based off of the mega like Roaring Moon, or you could argue that Roaring Moon has aspects of both Salamence's base form and mega, which Iron Valiant does too. I wouldn't have said anything if I didn't think it was worth including since the trivia also states Salamence is the only one based off of a mega. You really can't ignore those pink arm blades and poofy "dress", just like you can't ignore Roaring Moon's crescent wings, it's the shape of the features that convinces me personally. (Galarian Guy (talk) 14:30, 23 November 2022 (UTC))

Not only that but they also share the sum of their base stats. I'm sure everyone agrees that Iron Valiant is more closely related to Mega forms of Gardevoir and Gallade.--Rocket Grunt 16:32, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

The sum of stats is irrelevant. All it proves is that they're version-counterparts, not whether they share the same design process. The fact that Iron Valiant is based on two Pokemon already disproves that. Iron Valiant also lacks distinctive traits that are unique to the Megas alone. Arm-blades and skirts are not exclusive to the Megas.

Regular Gallade has arm-blades too, and the simpler single-pointed design also better matches Iron Valiant's blades. The pink color is irrelevant if it lacks the unique features of M.Gallade's blades, because as mentioned before, the 'Iron' Paradoxes only possess a single energy-color (hence Iron Moth's orange eyes, Iron Hands's yellow palms, Iron Bundle's blue belly-button, etc.).

Likewise, regular Gardevoir has a skirt too. The open-faced arrangement of the skirt, along with the green inner-lining, are clearly referencing regular Gardevoir's skirt. It's also far from what I'd call 'poofy' if it was supposed to be based on M.Gardevoir's dress. The skirt still retains a fairly slender 'cone' shape, rather than the 'dome' shape of M.Gardevoir's skirt. All it has is the roundness of the individual skirt-plates (which is a distinctly different aspect from the 'roundness' of the overall skirt as a whole), which as also mentioned, is likely a by-product of mechanization (like Iron Moth's wings).

Also, Roaring Moon's Violet Dex entry implicitly references its connection to Mega Evolution, while neither of Iron Valiant's entries has any sort of implications.--KyoPa (talk) 17:38, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Iron Valiant arms are pink like on Mega Gallade, and the "dress" is umbrella shape like in Mega Gardevoir. There's no element suggesting it being based on regular forms over mega forms.--Rocket Grunt 18:10, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

As I've repeatedly stated, color is one of the least distinct aspect of the 'Iron' Paradoxes. Regular Gardevoir's skirt is also 'umbrella'-like in nature. That is not unique to Mega Gardevoir. Likewise, as I repeatedly stated; the arrangement, the inner-lining, and the overall conic shape of the dress as a whole favor regular Gardevoir more than its Mega.

As for elements suggesting regular forms, I've stated them repeatedly. There's the aforementioned details of the dress. The head-crest is a straight vertical edge like regular Gallade's (as opposed to the curved crescent edge of M.Gallade's head-crest). The spike in its chest is different from either Mega.--KyoPa (talk) 18:17, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

You can't claim that pink color was chosen randomly for this Paradox Pokemon and happened to reflect Mega Gallade's design. Also, Gardevoir's dress is cone-like, while Iron Valiant and Mega Gardevoir's dress is umbrella-shaped, not to mention it's only on the back for Iron Valaint just like in Mega Gallade.--Rocket Grunt 18:26, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

I never said the color was random. Just that it's irrelevant as a design indication. Evidently, the pink was inspired by the color of the original Pokemon(s)'s chest-spike and eyes, and then used as the overall energy-color for the Paradox; similar to the other 'Iron' Paradoxes, like how Iron Hands's yellow is based on Hariyama's skirt. However, like how yellow is applied to parts of Iron Hands that doesn't match Hariyama (like the eyes, palms, feet, etc.), the other areas where the pink is applied (like Iron Valiant's feet, dress, and blades) is irrelevant to the color-scheme of the original Pokemon.

M.Gallade happened to also follow this process of reapplying color-accents in other areas, but correlation does not imply causation. After all, where did the red color of M.Gallade's arm-blades come from in the first place? Regular Gallade's red-accents. In the first place, there's not a wide range of colors to the Ralts-family (white, green, red/pink). There will naturally be overlaps. If you don't want overlaps, you would have to either ban Iron Valiant from using the color red, or ban it from using energy-blades (both of which are stupid ideas).

If by 'umbrella' you mean dome-shaped, Iron Valiant's dress is far more conic than dome-shaped. You're misguided by the roundness of the individual skirt-plates, rather than the overall skirt. The overall shape is conic; at most, I'll concede with egg-shaped. However, it's definitely not dome-shaped like M.Gardevoir's. You're also ignoring all of the details of the dress itself (green inner-lining, the opened face of the front area), and ignoring all of the other details I've mentioned. --KyoPa (talk) 18:45, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Similarly, I think you choose what you want to believe. At this point we need someone else to resolve this issue so if there's any staff memeber reading this, please have a voice.--Rocket Grunt 19:02, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Going to go ahead and step in here before I finish making changes to the page today. The two are definitely version counterparts to each other.

1. Roaring Moon is based off of Salamence's Mega form given the crescent moon wing design now has more flare to it along with other parts that make it look more primitive in design, as befitting a Paradox Pokémon from the far distant past.

2. Iron Valiant shares more in common with Gallade and Gardevoir's mega forms than their regular forms. They have M-Gallade's arm blades and M-Gardevoir's puffed out skirt. While regular Gallade also has arm blades, they are not red in color, nor do the arm blades stick out as much. Regular Gardevoir's skirt is small and much closer to Gardevoir's legs, whereas M-Gardevoir's skirt is puffed out which fits more with Iron Valiant's design. The only parts of Iron Valiant that fit with the regular forms is the red chest piece and Gallade's torso and head spike.

Everything else about Iron Valiant points more towards being based on Mega Forms than their regular forms. If it was based more on the regular forms of Gallade and Gardevoir, it would most likely be lacking the distinct red / pink arm blades and M-Gardevoir's puffed out skirt. Frozen Fennec 17:00, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

The counterpart-relation with Roaring Moon is irrelevant. It doesn't mean that their design processes correlate with each other. Just the very fact that Iron Valiant is based on two Pokemon, and neither of them are pseudo-legendaries, already disproves any such conceptual correlation.

1. As I've stated, the 'energy color' is also largely irrelevant. The 'Iron' Paradoxes only use a single 'energy color', so if Iron Valiant wants a different color of energy-blades, the colors of its eyes and chest-spike (and the energy-accents on the rest of its body) need to change with it. Thus, just because the blades are pink doesn't mean that the base Pokemon's blades are pink (again, like with many of the other 'Iron' Paradoxes and their respective 'energy colors').

2. If the color in question is the 'energy color' (i.e. pink), then you can only reliably refer to other details to establish a relation. M.Gallade's blades are more than just its color. They're more complex with two pointed ends on its edge, a white inner-body, and a red gem ascent. However, Iron Valiant's blades are monochromatic, plain, and single-pointed; similar to regular Gallade's blades. Just based on the qualitative details alone, Iron Valiant's blades are unrelated to M.Gallade's blades.

3. Again with the skirt. M.Gardevoir's skirt is not just a little 'puffed out', it's a full-blown dome-shaped ball gown that covers 360°. That is not at all like Iron Valiant's skirt. Iron Valiant's skirt is composed of rounded plates, yes; but that roundness only extends to the individual plates. The plates are arranged in a conic shape that is far from a dome. They're not even that 'puffed out'; they're relatively thin and reasonably valid as a mechanical substitute for 'cloth'. Moreover, the arrangement is not 360° and is open at the front, which is distinctive to regular Gardevoir. The inner-lining is green (not white), which is also distinctive to regular Gardevoir alone. If the goal is to emulate M.Gardevoir, why is the connection to M.Gardevoir so vague and abstract ('poofy', but not really), while the connection to regular Gardevoir is so distinct and unmistakable (green inner-lining, open-faced front)?

4. The prior points I've mentioned (i.e. the head-crest, the chest-spike, the non-white accented torso) are also unmistakably distinct traits unique to the regular forms alone, which you yourself admitted. The arm-blades and skirt are shared by both regular and Mega forms, and Iron Valiant lacks the distinctive traits that make them unique to the Megas alone (i.e. the complex design of M.Gallade's blades, the 360° dome-shape of M.Gardevoir's skirt). Not to mention, there are other distinctive traits that are explicitly unique to the Megas alone (i.e. M.Gallade's cape, M.Gardevoir's 'heart-like' chest-spikes, or even just that extra curved spike on M.Gardevoir's ears) that Iron Valiant could have easily used if that was the intent.

In regards to the aforementioned correlation with Roaring Moon, Roaring Moon's connection to M.Salamence is also not purely observational. Its Violet dex entry implicitly references its connection to Mega Evolution, while Iron Valiant's dex entries doesn't mention or imply anything of that nature. --KyoPa (talk) 18:08, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

If you disagree with another user's edits, that does not mean immediately change it to what you think it should be, you still need to wait for others to chime in for a discussion.

1. What is this "energy color" you are referring to? All "Iron" variants still retain some form based around their modern day contemporaries. The only Paradox Pokémon with major changes that don't fit to their moderns are: Koraidon/Miraidon, Sandy Shocks, and Slither Wing.

2. The color scheme and look for Iron Valiant's arms is closer to M-Gallade's than Gallade's.

3. That is very much like Iron Valian't skirt sans it being open in the front area to reveal the torso region.

4. The arms and skirt share more in common with their Mega form designs than their regular forms, Iron Valiant's body seems to use Gallade as a base.

The Violet entries for Iron Valiant imply they wanted to make a powerful Psychic-type, it would make more sense to use the Mega forms as a baseline rather than their base forms. Frozen Fennec 19:41, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

The 'energy color' I'm referring to are the saturated highlighted colors used by the Violet 'Iron' Paradoxes. All of them use only a single such 'energy color'

Red - Iron Treads

Orange - Iron Moth

Yellow - Iron Hands

Green - Iron Spikes

Blue - Iron Bundle

Violet - Iron Jugulis

Magenta/Pink - Iron Valiant

Yes, most of the time, these 'energy colors' are based on a specific part of the Pokemon (in Gardevoir's/Gallade's case, the chest-spikes and the eyes); but these energy-colors are then applied to other parts of the Paradoxes that have nothing to do with their base counterparts (i.e. Iron Hands applies the yellow skirting of Hariyama onto its palms, Iron Thorns applies Tyranitar's green to all of its holes and its originally-blue belly, Iron Treads applies the red of Donphan's ears to... well, everything). Hence, the 'energy color' is unreliable as a distinctive point.

If you're going to be nitpicking the color-scheme of specific parts, then why are you ignoring the green inner-lining of the skirt (something undeniably unique to regular Gardevoir), and how its body is not solid-white (unlike M.Gardevoir and M.Gallade).

Moreover, I already mention that there is more to the Megas' design than vaguely similar shape and colors. If Iron Valiant wanted to use M.Gallade's blades, it could easily incorporate the complex details of its blades while still maintaining the mechanical look. The white inner-body of M.Gallade's blades is even perfect for some sort of 'energy saw', but Iron Valiant just has a simple plain monochromatic blade. As for the skirt, there is no reason to make it so ambiguously similar to regular Gardevoir's skirt unless that was the intention.--KyoPa (talk) 20:02, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Iron Valiant

I don't think Iron Valiant is based on both Gardevoir and Gallade. Going off how Roaring Moon is based on mega Salamanca but is not completely identical to it. The same thing can be said of Iron Valiant being based of the design of mega Gallade. With the arm blade and two cape-like protrusions similar to mega Gallade. But with it having some differences like the chest spike. I really don't think they would want to base it off two Pokémon.- unsigned comment from Waldo32 (talk • contribs)

There's no other way to explain why it has Gardevoir's back hair-curls.--Rocket Grunt 16:32, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

It is based off of both Gardevoir and Gallade as it is Gallade's arm blades + Gardevoir's skirt. The typing is also both Gardevoir and Gallade's secondary typings respectively. Frozen Fennec 16:35, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Occulture

For reference, here are the in-game Occulture articles for Roaring Moon and Iron Valiant. Note that Roaring Moon explicitly references Mega Salamence.

Enigmas of Paldea, File #04

Roaring Moon: A Primeval Salamence?!

This elusive creature is called Roaring Moon after a similarly described being in the Scarlet Book. It looks similar to Salamence when they undergo a certain phenomenon elsewhere in the world, but it’s unclear if there is any connection.

This creature scatters feathers as it flies around at high speeds seeking prey. It’s thought to be more savage than Salamence, and if you should encounter one, it’s imperative that you avoid actual contact.

Enigmas of Paldea, File #04

Iron Valiant: An Experiment Gone Wrong?!

This oddity’s name is borrowed from that of an object described in the Violet Book. One theory holds that it is in fact a robot—the product of a mad scientist’s efforts to create the most powerful psychic Pokémon of all.

According to its few eyewitnesses, Iron Valiant appears similar to both Gardevoir and Gallade. It’s also said to be cruel enough to take its brilliantly shining blade and cut down anyone confronting it without hesitation.

--KyoPa (talk) 19:15, 24 November 2022 (UTC)