Talk:Bombirdier (Pokémon)
Google Translate says that the Japanese Name of Bombirdier's category translates to either "Lost Thing" or "Dropped Item" Pokemon. HenryWong122 (talk) 22:05, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
- I looked at other translation sites and dictionaries and it does seem to be like a pun on that phrase or something. I don't want to just put "Dropped Item mon" on the category table, though. Idk, maybe someone else can figure how to fill that out (the category page still has a few cells blank). Anzasquiddles (talk) 05:14, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
- Well, it's already the "Item Drop" Pokémon in English, so it being the "Dropped Item" Pokémon in Japanese makes sense. HenryWong122 (talk) 22:28, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
STAB
With the introduction of Bombirdier's Signature Ability and Terastallizing, Bombirdier has four STABs, Flying, Dark, Rock (via ability) and then any of the other Tera types. Dhelmise is the only other Pokémon to be able to do this if it was in the game. HenryWong122 (talk) 22:41, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
- Oh yeah, didn't even realize. I thought no mon would have this kinda deal since Dhelmise isn't in SV, but i forgot Bombirdier also has a similar ability. Will add to the page. Anzasquiddles (talk) 22:50, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
- This is really stretching the phrase STAB, how is boosting moves that are not the "same type" considered STAB? Terastallizing would count because the user becomes the same type. But it's not STAB if it's Steelworker, Dragon's Maw, Transistor, and the Pokémon is not the same type. Pikiwyn talk 05:29, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
- I mean, there's a reason i worded it specifically in the way i did on the main page. "50% boost in four types at once: two via STABs, one via ability, and one via Tera". Anzasquiddles (talk) 06:14, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
- This is really stretching the phrase STAB, how is boosting moves that are not the "same type" considered STAB? Terastallizing would count because the user becomes the same type. But it's not STAB if it's Steelworker, Dragon's Maw, Transistor, and the Pokémon is not the same type. Pikiwyn talk 05:29, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
Bombirdier's Origin
It has come to my attention that one of the possible origins mentioned for Bombirdier is a Fiat BR.20 Cicogna, an Italian military bomber aircraft used by the at the time fascists Italy, and used by the far right during the Spanish Civil War to massacre the opposition and civilians. Such theory, clearly thrown there without much critical thinking, suggests that someone designing Pokémon would decidedly pay homage to a vehicle associated with nazifascist massacres happening across Europe during the WWII. This, as one can imagine, is bafflingly absurd and gross for a series primarily aimed at children and young teenagers.
I do believe Bombirdier has origins loosely related to bomber planes, as its very name suggests (bombardier), but that specific airplane model has no major popular significance and is thrown there purely due to its nickname ("stork") and its extremely loose connections to Spain's history -- there are no physical similarities to Bombirdier or references that point directly to it in Dex entries, Pokémon species, etc.
It's known that some Pokémon have designs inspired by military artillary (Garchomp, Octillery, Dragapult's line, beta designs for Hydreigon line). The issue here isn't that it might be based on a military plane, it's the fact it's a plane associated with nazifascism authoritarianism and the tragedies that stemmed from it. And no, the Dark type does not justify this. To put this into perspective, this is almost as equivalent as someone proposing that a Poison-type Pokémon might be based on mustard gas or gas chambers, or that a Fire-type Pokémon would be based on 9/11 or Napalm. As someone that has lost family during the brutal Spanish Civil War, and has always heard relatives talking about its horrors, it deeply bothers me a lot how such irresponsible proposal was allowed on this site for so long.
I recently tried to get it removed, only for it to be reverted by Staff. Admittedly, one of the reasons I provided for the edit was because thought this was added due to a Pokétuber snowballing such such theory (it would not be the first time this happens), but as pointed out this was in the page before said video, and I stand corrected. But if anything, I feel like this makes matters even worse, considering the damage it might've caused by letting it be spread by Youtubers with millions of fairly young subscribers came from them likely reading this page. It's certainly strange to me how this site is so overtly concerned when it comes to users proposing popular culture franchises in Pokémon origins such as Godzilla or D&D, but consciously allows a proposal exalting Mussolini's military to stay.
In short, I'd like to, again, request for the removal of mentions of the Fiat BR.20 Cicogna. ExLight (talk) 00:13, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- I support removal, this piece of trivia only makes sense if you consider the English name. Minibug (talk) 00:20, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- I'm against the removal of such trivia. The origin section should be a place for reasonable speculation. It only lists possible inspirations for a Pokémon; there are no hard claims there, and the reader is supposed to take from it what they want and judge for themselves. That is not possible if some ideas are omitted. Bombirdier is a bombarder no matter its name. I really don't understand such an emotional reaction to the fact that this type of plane was used by Nazis or Fascists. Every type of war weapon was used to commit atrocities. Preferring ones that were used by one side sounds biased. Don't forget that Japan was one of the Axis powers, an ally to Germany and Italy in WWII, and they might have a different relationship with their history than we do.--Rocket Grunt 09:40, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- You cannot be serious. Pokémon already edited / censored sprites just because they had their arm sightly up to avoid it being interpreted as a Sieg Heil. And you think they put a Pokémon associated with the death of hundreds of thousands of Spanish civilians in a region based on Spain?
- Thinking the people responsible for the Pokémon Designs, which mind you do not include only Japanese People (reminder that James Turner was the Art Director not long ago), would be as ignorant and insensitive as to make a Pokémon based on a nazifascist plane is gross. Specially since it would imply they actively researched for its history to find such loose connections.
- Since you're bringing up how this "makes sense" for it to be designed by the Japanese, I'd like to point out to what Minibug brought to light. This extremely loose connection to Bomber planes only appears loosely in the English name. Nowhere else. No other names, no Dex entries, nowhere.
- This is not "reasonable speculation". Like I already said, mentioning loose similarities with bomber in general is fine if you want, but PLEASE, do not pick a model associated with nazifascism. This isn't a 4chan fake region or Palworld making edgy politically incorrect jokes/ references. This is Pokémon. ExLight (talk) 10:59, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- Symbols like Sieg Heil or swastika that appears on Golbat card were censored only in international versions. I don't see a reason why historical references would give any reason to be so much outraged about. Pokemon franchise has a Pokemon of death and things like ultimate weapon. Hydreigon, for example, was planned to be based on a german tanks. Would you also like to censor Garchomp's fighter plane reference trivia because it wasn't used by nazis? It surely killed many people too.--Rocket Grunt 19:41, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
- As this discussion does not appear to be heading in a productive direction, I would appreciate if we could stop it here. After discussion with other staff, we decided to remove the piece of trivia involved for not having strong enough supporting evidence. Thank you. Minibug (talk) 20:25, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
