Talk:Paradox Pokémon

Iron Valiant prop

Hey, I have a proposition in regards to Iron Valiant. It, being the version exclusive counterpart to Roaring Moon, is also in fact also based on the Mega Evolved forms of Gallade and Gardevoir. This is evident since: -It has white arms like both megas -The white "gloves", "puffed out dress" part and more circular green part of the head like Mega Gardevoir. -The arms have the same pink blades as Mega Gallade. Just an observation I felt worth mentioning! (Galarian Guy (talk) 09:20, 23 November 2022 (UTC))

I think the scrutinizing focus on color is a poor indication, considering many of the other Paradoxes don't match exact colors either. All of the 'Iron' Paradoxes also only use a single color for their energy-based body-parts, so Valiant is naturally restricted to pink if it wants to use energy blades.

If you look closely, Valiant shares far more distinctive traits with their base forms than their Mega forms:

- The shape of its head-crest matches regular Gallade's, rather than the curvier crest of M.Gallade.

- The shape of its ears is closer to regular Gardevoir than M.Gardevoir.

- The way its skirt opens at the front and the green underside match regular Gardevoir. The 'poofiness' is more likely a result of the mechanization of its skirt (since you can't exactly have mechanical cloth), and they would've made the skirt more prominent if they were emulating M.Gardevoir.

- The spike in its chest doesn't match either Mega (M.Gardevoir has two spikes while M.Gallade has a short nub). --KyoPa (talk) 13:54, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

The shape of it's "ear" spikes also match with Mega Gallade and I think it's fair to say the two main features of the arm blades and poofy dress are more than enough considering Salamence only has the wing shape going for it. I really believe that it's based off of the mega like Roaring Moon, or you could argue that Roaring Moon has aspects of both Salamence's base form and mega, which Iron Valiant does too. I wouldn't have said anything if I didn't think it was worth including since the trivia also states Salamence is the only one based off of a mega. You really can't ignore those pink arm blades and poofy "dress", just like you can't ignore Roaring Moon's crescent wings, it's the shape of the features that convinces me personally. (Galarian Guy (talk) 14:30, 23 November 2022 (UTC))

Not only that but they also share the sum of their base stats. I'm sure everyone agrees that Iron Valiant is more closely related to Mega forms of Gardevoir and Gallade.--Rocket Grunt 16:32, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

The sum of stats is irrelevant. All it proves is that they're version-counterparts, not whether they share the same design process. The fact that Iron Valiant is based on two Pokemon already disproves that. Iron Valiant also lacks distinctive traits that are unique to the Megas alone. Arm-blades and skirts are not exclusive to the Megas.

Regular Gallade has arm-blades too, and the simpler single-pointed design also better matches Iron Valiant's blades. The pink color is irrelevant if it lacks the unique features of M.Gallade's blades, because as mentioned before, the 'Iron' Paradoxes only possess a single energy-color (hence Iron Moth's orange eyes, Iron Hands's yellow palms, Iron Bundle's blue belly-button, etc.).

Likewise, regular Gardevoir has a skirt too. The open-faced arrangement of the skirt, along with the green inner-lining, are clearly referencing regular Gardevoir's skirt. It's also far from what I'd call 'poofy' if it was supposed to be based on M.Gardevoir's dress. The skirt still retains a fairly slender 'cone' shape, rather than the 'dome' shape of M.Gardevoir's skirt. All it has is the roundness of the individual skirt-plates (which is a distinctly different aspect from the 'roundness' of the overall skirt as a whole), which as also mentioned, is likely a by-product of mechanization (like Iron Moth's wings).

Also, Roaring Moon's Violet Dex entry implicitly references its connection to Mega Evolution, while neither of Iron Valiant's entries has any sort of implications.--KyoPa (talk) 17:38, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Iron Valiant arms are pink like on Mega Gallade, and the "dress" is umbrella shape like in Mega Gardevoir. There's no element suggesting it being based on regular forms over mega forms.--Rocket Grunt 18:10, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

As I've repeatedly stated, color is one of the least distinct aspect of the 'Iron' Paradoxes. Regular Gardevoir's skirt is also 'umbrella'-like in nature. That is not unique to Mega Gardevoir. Likewise, as I repeatedly stated; the arrangement, the inner-lining, and the overall conic shape of the dress as a whole favor regular Gardevoir more than its Mega.

As for elements suggesting regular forms, I've stated them repeatedly. There's the aforementioned details of the dress. The head-crest is a straight vertical edge like regular Gallade's (as opposed to the curved crescent edge of M.Gallade's head-crest). The spike in its chest is different from either Mega.--KyoPa (talk) 18:17, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

You can't claim that pink color was chosen randomly for this Paradox Pokemon and happened to reflect Mega Gallade's design. Also, Gardevoir's dress is cone-like, while Iron Valiant and Mega Gardevoir's dress is umbrella-shaped, not to mention it's only on the back for Iron Valaint just like in Mega Gallade.--Rocket Grunt 18:26, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

I never said the color was random. Just that it's irrelevant as a design indication. Evidently, the pink was inspired by the color of the original Pokemon(s)'s chest-spike and eyes, and then used as the overall energy-color for the Paradox; similar to the other 'Iron' Paradoxes, like how Iron Hands's yellow is based on Hariyama's skirt. However, like how yellow is applied to parts of Iron Hands that doesn't match Hariyama (like the eyes, palms, feet, etc.), the other areas where the pink is applied (like Iron Valiant's feet, dress, and blades) is irrelevant to the color-scheme of the original Pokemon.

M.Gallade happened to also follow this process of reapplying color-accents in other areas, but correlation does not imply causation. After all, where did the red color of M.Gallade's arm-blades come from in the first place? Regular Gallade's red-accents. In the first place, there's not a wide range of colors to the Ralts-family (white, green, red/pink). There will naturally be overlaps. If you don't want overlaps, you would have to either ban Iron Valiant from using the color red, or ban it from using energy-blades (both of which are stupid ideas).

If by 'umbrella' you mean dome-shaped, Iron Valiant's dress is far more conic than dome-shaped. You're misguided by the roundness of the individual skirt-plates, rather than the overall skirt. The overall shape is conic; at most, I'll concede with egg-shaped. However, it's definitely not dome-shaped like M.Gardevoir's. You're also ignoring all of the details of the dress itself (green inner-lining, the opened face of the front area), and ignoring all of the other details I've mentioned. --KyoPa (talk) 18:45, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Similarly, I think you choose what you want to believe. At this point we need someone else to resolve this issue so if there's any staff memeber reading this, please have a voice.--Rocket Grunt 19:02, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Going to go ahead and step in here before I finish making changes to the page today. The two are definitely version counterparts to each other.

1. Roaring Moon is based off of Salamence's Mega form given the crescent moon wing design now has more flare to it along with other parts that make it look more primitive in design, as befitting a Paradox Pokémon from the far distant past.

2. Iron Valiant shares more in common with Gallade and Gardevoir's mega forms than their regular forms. They have M-Gallade's arm blades and M-Gardevoir's puffed out skirt. While regular Gallade also has arm blades, they are not red in color, nor do the arm blades stick out as much. Regular Gardevoir's skirt is small and much closer to Gardevoir's legs, whereas M-Gardevoir's skirt is puffed out which fits more with Iron Valiant's design. The only parts of Iron Valiant that fit with the regular forms is the red chest piece and Gallade's torso and head spike.

Everything else about Iron Valiant points more towards being based on Mega Forms than their regular forms. If it was based more on the regular forms of Gallade and Gardevoir, it would most likely be lacking the distinct red / pink arm blades and M-Gardevoir's puffed out skirt. Frozen Fennec 17:00, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

The counterpart-relation with Roaring Moon is irrelevant. It doesn't mean that their design processes correlate with each other. Just the very fact that Iron Valiant is based on two Pokemon, and neither of them are pseudo-legendaries, already disproves any such conceptual correlation.

1. As I've stated, the 'energy color' is also largely irrelevant. The 'Iron' Paradoxes only use a single 'energy color', so if Iron Valiant wants a different color of energy-blades, the colors of its eyes and chest-spike (and the energy-accents on the rest of its body) need to change with it. Thus, just because the blades are pink doesn't mean that the base Pokemon's blades are pink (again, like with many of the other 'Iron' Paradoxes and their respective 'energy colors').

2. If the color in question is the 'energy color' (i.e. pink), then you can only reliably refer to other details to establish a relation. M.Gallade's blades are more than just its color. They're more complex with two pointed ends on its edge, a white inner-body, and a red gem ascent. However, Iron Valiant's blades are monochromatic, plain, and single-pointed; similar to regular Gallade's blades. Just based on the qualitative details alone, Iron Valiant's blades are unrelated to M.Gallade's blades.

3. Again with the skirt. M.Gardevoir's skirt is not just a little 'puffed out', it's a full-blown dome-shaped ball gown that covers 360°. That is not at all like Iron Valiant's skirt. Iron Valiant's skirt is composed of rounded plates, yes; but that roundness only extends to the individual plates. The plates are arranged in a conic shape that is far from a dome. They're not even that 'puffed out'; they're relatively thin and reasonably valid as a mechanical substitute for 'cloth'. Moreover, the arrangement is not 360° and is open at the front, which is distinctive to regular Gardevoir. The inner-lining is green (not white), which is also distinctive to regular Gardevoir alone. If the goal is to emulate M.Gardevoir, why is the connection to M.Gardevoir so vague and abstract ('poofy', but not really), while the connection to regular Gardevoir is so distinct and unmistakable (green inner-lining, open-faced front)?

4. The prior points I've mentioned (i.e. the head-crest, the chest-spike, the non-white accented torso) are also unmistakably distinct traits unique to the regular forms alone, which you yourself admitted. The arm-blades and skirt are shared by both regular and Mega forms, and Iron Valiant lacks the distinctive traits that make them unique to the Megas alone (i.e. the complex design of M.Gallade's blades, the 360° dome-shape of M.Gardevoir's skirt). Not to mention, there are other distinctive traits that are explicitly unique to the Megas alone (i.e. M.Gallade's cape, M.Gardevoir's 'heart-like' chest-spikes, or even just that extra curved spike on M.Gardevoir's ears) that Iron Valiant could have easily used if that was the intent.

In regards to the aforementioned correlation with Roaring Moon, Roaring Moon's connection to M.Salamence is also not purely observational. Its Violet dex entry implicitly references its connection to Mega Evolution, while Iron Valiant's dex entries doesn't mention or imply anything of that nature. --KyoPa (talk) 18:08, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

If you disagree with another user's edits, that does not mean immediately change it to what you think it should be, you still need to wait for others to chime in for a discussion.

1. What is this "energy color" you are referring to? All "Iron" variants still retain some form based around their modern day contemporaries. The only Paradox Pokémon with major changes that don't fit to their moderns are: Koraidon/Miraidon, Sandy Shocks, and Slither Wing.

2. The color scheme and look for Iron Valiant's arms is closer to M-Gallade's than Gallade's.

3. That is very much like Iron Valian't skirt sans it being open in the front area to reveal the torso region.

4. The arms and skirt share more in common with their Mega form designs than their regular forms, Iron Valiant's body seems to use Gallade as a base.

The Violet entries for Iron Valiant imply they wanted to make a powerful Psychic-type, it would make more sense to use the Mega forms as a baseline rather than their base forms. Frozen Fennec 19:41, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

The 'energy color' I'm referring to are the saturated highlighted colors used by the Violet 'Iron' Paradoxes. All of them use only a single such 'energy color'

Red - Iron Treads

Orange - Iron Moth

Yellow - Iron Hands

Green - Iron Spikes

Blue - Iron Bundle

Violet - Iron Jugulis

Magenta/Pink - Iron Valiant

Yes, most of the time, these 'energy colors' are based on a specific part of the Pokemon (in Gardevoir's/Gallade's case, the chest-spikes and the eyes); but these energy-colors are then applied to other parts of the Paradoxes that have nothing to do with their base counterparts (i.e. Iron Hands applies the yellow skirting of Hariyama onto its palms, Iron Thorns applies Tyranitar's green to all of its holes and its originally-blue belly, Iron Treads applies the red of Donphan's ears to... well, everything). Hence, the 'energy color' is unreliable as a distinctive point.

If you're going to be nitpicking the color-scheme of specific parts, then why are you ignoring the green inner-lining of the skirt (something undeniably unique to regular Gardevoir), and how its body is not solid-white (unlike M.Gardevoir and M.Gallade).

Moreover, I already mention that there is more to the Megas' design than vaguely similar shape and colors. If Iron Valiant wanted to use M.Gallade's blades, it could easily incorporate the complex details of its blades while still maintaining the mechanical look. The white inner-body of M.Gallade's blades is even perfect for some sort of 'energy saw', but Iron Valiant just has a simple plain monochromatic blade. As for the skirt, there is no reason to make it so ambiguously similar to regular Gardevoir's skirt unless that was the intention.--KyoPa (talk) 20:02, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Kyo, I suggest you go take a look at Gardevoir and Gallades's arms then look at their Mega form's arms.

It has elements for ALL of them in the general design however the Mega form's elements are much more evident. It is also worth noting that it has design elements unique to it too, much like the other Paradox Forms, such as the "pigtails" on the back of it's head, it's side of the cheek spikes which are a midway point between the Pokémon it is based on and the pink body "spike" is round and unlike the body parts on the others. It is extremely likely they gave the underside of Gardevoir's dress to Iron Valiant and no one is doubting that, however the dress shape itself is the same as the Mega Form's which you are ignoring. I don't know why the underside of the dress is more important to you than the arm blade colour but you seem to be picking and choosing what to believe when the facts are in the design. And when you compare it to it's version exclusive counterpart, that's the last piece slotting into place. (Galarian Guy (talk) 14:13, 25 November 2022 (UTC))

There are vast differences between Iron Valiant's arms and M.Gardevoir's/M.Gallade's arms. Yes, there are vague similarities, but there will naturally be similarities because they're literally derived from the same Pokemon. I haven't been ignoring anything. I've already addressed that they're not the same, nor similar to a meaningful degree. You're taking a vague 20% similarity, ignoring the distinct differences, and reaching to make it a 100% similarity.

- M.Gardevoir's skirt is not made of individual oval plates. Iron Valiant's said plates are placed in a cone-like arrangement at an approximate 60°-angled point, not a nearly-circular dome like M.Gardevoir's.

- As for the sleeves, M.Gardevoir's sleeves are nowhere near as flared out, or rather, they're not really flared in the first place. Moreoever, Iron Valiant is a robot, so its elbows will naturally be segmented, forming 'sleeves' regardless.

- As I've described many times, the 'energy color' (pink in Iron Valiant's case) is unreliable as an identifying trait, literally going off of precedent set by the other Paradoxes. M.Gallade's arm-blades have far more distinctive identifying features beyond a single shade of color, said features which Iron Valiant lacks.

- Again, the correlation with Roaring Moon is meaningless, because you're cherry-picking a connection, and only in a manner that goes one-way. Roaring Moon is not based on two Pokemon. Roaring Moon is based on a pseudo-legendary. Roaring Moon's Dex and Occulture entries implicitly specify Mega Salamence, not just Salamence itself. With how little correlation they share, why is it that you're so headstrong about how their counterpart-relation must mean that they're both be based on Megas?

The majority of these traits can be explained as the result of the mechanization of Iron Valiant's design, rather than an intentional reference to the Megas. The skirt-plates are a replacement of the original cloth-like skirt. Just because they made the individual plates round doesn't mean anything, because neither regular Gardevoir nor M.Gardevoir have independent sections of their skirts that are individually rounded. There is no direct correlation between them. The 'sleeves', as mentioned, are innate to mechanization. The exaggeratedly flared shape of said sleeves (again, M.Gardevoir's sleeves are nowhere near as flared, if flared at all) can be credited to trying to combine Gardevoir's and Gallade's arms into one, while incorporating that detachment gimmick and making sure the blades don't clip through any body-parts because of the slight anatomical differences from Gallade.

Having said all that, I will clarify, practically everything I said prior is meaningless. After thinking it through, this whole argument of opinionated interpretation is irrelevant and not important. I take issue with the claim, the facts are in the design, because that's not factual. That's subjective. Yes, I'm calling the kettle black, because I've been doing the same thing, and I apologize for contributing to the problem. This 'issue' of speculation versus speculation shouldn't have been an issue in the first place, because both sides are still speculation in the end.

That said, I still disagree with Mega Gardevoir and Mega Gallade, but for a more important reason than my personal opinion: the lack of concrete info. 'Paradox Pokemon' is not a category created and interpreted by the fans. It's an officially-designated category (quite literally their category). Through the various sources of the Pokedex, Scarlet/Violet Book, and Occulture; the game itself acknowledges which Pokemon that each Paradox resembles, and in Roaring Moon's case, the game even implicitly specifies Salamence that underwent Mega Evolution. In light of this, the game only confirms and acknowledges a relation to regular Gardevoir and Gallade; it doesn't specify anything beyond that, and any relation with their Megas is unconfirmed speculation. The wiki should prioritize concrete info over speculation when applicable, especially on a table meant to be informative.

If you're still adamant that the similarities to their Megas should still be noted even without concrete info, I don't see much issue putting a sub-note of such in the trivia section. Something like:

• Roaring Moon is the only Paradox Pokémon based on a Mega Evolved Pokémon.
  • Iron Valiant has some similarities with Mega Gardevoir and Mega Gallade, but any possible relation has not been acknowledged.

--KyoPa (talk) 22:54, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

Iron Valiant lacks the two defining features of Mega Gardevoir and Mega Gallade (giant poofy dress and cape, respectively) and more importantly, the never mentions mega evolution in relation to Iron Valiant. Saying it's based on Mega Gardevoir and Mega Gallade is pure fanon, as opposed to Roaring Moon, where the connection to mega evolution is stated in-game.DrPumpkinz (talk) 04:27, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

-- You seem to have misremembered the full quote: "It looks similar to Salamence when they undergo a certain phenomenon elsewhere in the world, but it's unclear if there is any connection." This suggests while there is a resemblance to Mega Salamance, there is no way to confirm the connection other than the design. The same is true for Iron Valiant, with a futuristic and unique version of the dress/cape incorporated into it's design. The arms alone are enough to convince me since they are pulled directly from the megas, just like Roaring Moon's wings. I think there is one level that we should consider in-game, where they state a connection is unclear and fail to recognise a connection, then there is another level out of game where we can visually analyse that both are designed after the mega forms. (Galarian Guy (talk) 12:02, 11 December 2022 (UTC))

-- I didn't misremember anything. A lot of things in the Pokedex are wishy-washy "huh this thing's maybe kinda weird but we're not too sure". The point is that the game goes out of its way to say "hey Roaring Moon kinda looks like Mega Salamence nudge nudge wink wink" and makes no such mention for Iron Valiant. DrPumpkinz (talk) 16:53, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Iron Valiant

I don't think Iron Valiant is based on both Gardevoir and Gallade. Going off how Roaring Moon is based on mega Salamanca but is not completely identical to it. The same thing can be said of Iron Valiant being based of the design of mega Gallade. With the arm blade and two cape-like protrusions similar to mega Gallade. But with it having some differences like the chest spike. I really don't think they would want to base it off two Pokémon.- unsigned comment from Waldo32 (talk • contribs)

There's no other way to explain why it has Gardevoir's back hair-curls.--Rocket Grunt 16:32, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

It is based off of both Gardevoir and Gallade as it is Gallade's arm blades + Gardevoir's skirt. The typing is also both Gardevoir and Gallade's secondary typings respectively. Frozen Fennec 16:35, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Occulture

For reference, here are the in-game Occulture articles for Roaring Moon and Iron Valiant. Note that Roaring Moon explicitly references Mega Salamence.

Enigmas of Paldea, File #04

Roaring Moon: A Primeval Salamence?!

This elusive creature is called Roaring Moon after a similarly described being in the Scarlet Book. It looks similar to Salamence when they undergo a certain phenomenon elsewhere in the world, but it’s unclear if there is any connection.

This creature scatters feathers as it flies around at high speeds seeking prey. It’s thought to be more savage than Salamence, and if you should encounter one, it’s imperative that you avoid actual contact.

Enigmas of Paldea, File #04

Iron Valiant: An Experiment Gone Wrong?!

This oddity’s name is borrowed from that of an object described in the Violet Book. One theory holds that it is in fact a robot—the product of a mad scientist’s efforts to create the most powerful psychic Pokémon of all.

According to its few eyewitnesses, Iron Valiant appears similar to both Gardevoir and Gallade. It’s also said to be cruel enough to take its brilliantly shining blade and cut down anyone confronting it without hesitation.

--KyoPa (talk) 19:15, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Just going to post the rest of the articles for posterity, and also bolding Pokemon names for clarity.

Enigmas of Paldea, File #05

Flutter Mane: A Ghostly Pterosaur?!

Flutter Mane—a name taken from a strange creature with a matching description appearing in the Scarlet Book—is said to float around the sky at night with its long hair writhing about it.

Eyewitness accounts describe it as resembling a giant Misdreavus at first glance, albeit a highly fierce and aggressive one. Some believe that it’s a ghost of a pterosaur from a long-gone era.

Enigmas of Paldea, File #05

Iron Hands: Secretly a Cyborg?!

This being’s name comes from the one given to an iron-handed entity in the mysterious Violet Book. It is said to have fists that move independent of its body and to be capable of throwing large, fast-moving vehicles.

A leading theory holds that Iron Hands was once an athlete who became mortally wounded but was kept alive by being made into a cyborg. Why it so strongly resembles Hariyama, however, remains unanswered.

Enigmas of Paldea, File #06

Brute Bonnet: Amoonguss Meets Dinosaur?

This bizarre creature is said to combine traits of dinosaurs with those of the Pokémon Amoonguss. It’s named after a fierce mushroom creature of matching description that appears in the renowned Scarlet Book.

Brute Bonnet certainly resembles Amoonguss, though with its own unique twists: its gigantic stature and seemingly low intelligence combine to make it a savage, powerful fighter.

Enigmas of Paldea, File #06

Iron Thorns: A Tyranitar of the Distant Future?!

A strange being called Iron Thorns has been sighted in a certain cave in Paldea. This being bears a strong resemblance to Tyranitar, but it apparently displays great coolheadedness and prefers to avoid unnecessary fights.

It appears to be highly intelligent and clad in metallic armor, causing some to speculate that it may be a Tyranitar as it would appear a billion years from now. Its name comes from a similarly described entity that appears in the Violet Book.

Enigmas of Paldea, File #07

Sandy Shocks: A Magneton with a 10-Thousand-Year Lifespan?!

Some scientists claim that this mysterious being is a Magneton that has lived for 10 thousand years. It has been sighted numerous times in Paldea’s more arid regions, but there are no reports of it ever having been caught.

It’s said that Sandy Shocks is an aggressive sort and that some people who’ve seen it have been attacked as well. It takes its name from a beast with a matching description in the era-defining Scarlet Book.

Enigmas of Paldea, File #07

Iron Jugulis: Pokémon or Machine?!

This flying life-form bearing a resemblance to Hydreigon has been seen in a certain corner of Paldea. It was reported to have razed an entire building with a high-energy blast, then flown off as if to find its next objective.

Iron Jugulis is theorized to be a sort of machine-Hydreigon hybrid, as it combines the former’s ruthlessness with the latter’s ferocity. It takes its name from a similarly described entity in the Violet Book.

Enigmas of Paldea, File #08

Slither Wing: A Prehistoric Volcarona, Revived?!

There have been precious few sightings reported of the ultra-mysterious Slither Wing, a being whose name is taken from that of a similar-seeming creature described in the ever-puzzling Scarlet Book.

Slither Wing shares traits with Volcarona, so some theorize that it may have been revived from fossils from a prehistoric era that we have discussed in these pages. However, no Volcarona fossils of that era are known to have been found.

Enigmas of Paldea, File #08

Iron Moth: A UFO Sent to Spy on Humankind?!

The name Iron Moth was borrowed from that of a flying object described in the era-defining Violet Book. It was said to resemble Volcarona and would descend from the skies, following people around and occasionally even attacking them.

Some point to Iron Moth’s aggression as a sign that it is, in fact, a UFO of sorts being controlled by alien life. Perhaps something out there is using Iron Moth to observe us, waiting for the moment to mount an invasion...

Enigmas of Paldea, File #09

Great Tusk: A Living Relic of the Dinosaur Era?!

In one arid corner of Paldea, there have been reports of a mysterious life-form. It’s said to resemble a Donphan at first glance, albeit one with gigantic tusks, tough scales, and an aggressive disposition.

Leading theories hold that this being is nothing less than a living relic of the dinosaur era, but no one can say for sure. Apparently, it’s called Great Tusk after the name of a strange being that was written about in the mysterious Scarlet Book.

Enigmas of Paldea, File #09

Iron Treads: An Alien Weapon?!

In one arid corner of Paldea, there have been reports of a mysterious life-form. It’s said to resemble a Donphan at first glance, albeit one that can abruptly assume a spherical shape and launch into a swift rolling attack.

Rumors say this being is some kind of weapon using technology not of this world, but no one can say for sure. Apparently, it’s called Iron Treads after the name of a strange being that was written about in the mysterious Violet Book.

Enigmas of Paldea, File #10

Scream Tail: A Billion-Year-Old Jigglypuff?!

Somewhere in a Paldean forest, it’s said, lurks Scream Tail—a being with Jigglypuff’s own endearing puffball appearance but also a ferocious aggression that leads it to attack anyone who comes near.

Its primitive appearance and savage nature have prompted rumors that it could be a Jigglypuff from one billion years ago. It’s named after a creature in the Scarlet Book that is described as having a distinctive tail and scream.

Enigmas of Paldea, File #10

Iron Bundle: An Ancient Civilization’s Robot?!

The mysterious Violet Book makes reference to a being called Iron Bundle, which was said to look like Delibird and to possess a spherical apparatus from which it would fire huge blasts of ice to propel itself through snowy lands.

Plenty of theories about it have been floated. A leading one suggests it is the product of a long-gone civilization—a notion supported by ancient writings that describe the design and usage of machines resembling Iron Bundle.

As you can see, all of them specify which Pokemon they resemble, no subjective interpretation necessary. Roaring Moon even goes as far as to specify 'Salamence when they undergo a certain phenomenon elsewhere in the world' AKA Mega Salamence. The fact of the matter is that if Iron Valiant was referencing the Mega forms of Gardevoir and Gallade, the Occulture file would've specified it.

--KyoPa (talk) 20:04, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

• I think should add these to Paradox page or at least have its own page.--Jacob9594 (talk) 20:41, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

future SoJ leaked name

The future SoJ paradox mon's name is leaked to be "Iron Sword". PikachuEevee2022 (talk) 02:51, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Where is the proof?--Jacob9594 (talk) 02:54, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

its a leak, and idk where riddlers kaka and khu find their leaks PikachuEevee2022 (talk) 20:25, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

I can't find anything about it, and nither Kaka nor Khu appear to have given such information lately. Of course leaks don't belong on a wiki, but I would like to know if it's true.--Rocket Grunt 20:42, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Iron Valiant 2: Electric Boogaloo

How do we know that Iron Valian is based specifically on Gardevoir and Gallade's Mega forms without any official confirmation? Nowhere does the game say anything about Mega Gardevoir and Mega Gallade, it's a huge stretch just because IV happens to have elements of the Mega forms. Inkster (talk) 21:49, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Personally i think it should just mention Gardevoir and Gallade, yeah. Like you said, the Occulture article doesn't explicitly mention IV resembling Megas (unlike Roaring Moon). IV does have some traits of Mega Gardevoir/Gallade, but i think it's better to just mention regular Gardevoir/Gallade as a general baseline. Either that or we bloat the table by including both base and Mega Gardevoir/Gallade (this is not an actual suggestion). Anzasquiddles (talk) 22:23, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

That's my entire point. Even then, "IV is based off Megas" is fanon, not canon. Inkster (talk) 22:42, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

I agree, there is nothing to indicate that IV is based off of megas. Pikiwyn ^talk 17:10, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Since the Paradox Pokémon...

Since the Paradox Pokémon (aside from Koraidon and Miraidon) have different names in Spanish and Italian due to their unusual names shouldn’t there now be articles for Spanish and Italian Pokémon names as there is now 15 Pokémon (With Type Null also being one of them) with different names in Spanish and Italian

I thought I would ask this here for the reasons that are mentioned in the title so perhaps someone should do that that eventually as I feel that 15 Pokémon with different names in Spanish and Italian is enough to justify creating those articles ~~TurtwigFan4848~~ - unsigned comment from Turtwig Fan4848 (talk • contribs)

Stone evolution commonality - worth a trivia note?

The three past Paradox Pokémon based on a not-fully-evolved base Pokémon (Sandy Shocks, Scream Tail, and Flutter Mane) each have base forms that typically evolve with an evolutionary stone--Magneton with a Thunder Stone (as of Gen VIII), Jigglypuff with a Moon Stone, and Misdreavus with a Dusk Stone. Is this worth a note in the trivia section? Slowbro4pres (talk) 19:45, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Base stat comparison

Instead of just comparing the Paradox Pokémon's base stats with each other, how about also comparing them to their modern-day counterparts? Many Paradox Pokémon have stat distributions resembling their modern-day counterparts, with perhaps a spike in one or two stats and slight changes in others. An example is how Misdreavus, Mismagius, and Flutter Mane all have HP = Attack = Defense and Sp. Atk = Sp. Def = Speed. Haruna Tsuruhime (talk) 05:06, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

Iron [X] = stars???

Personally i think it's way too much of a stretch; especially since none of the future paradox mons are explicitly designed after stars (unlike, say, Solgaleo). The trivia was first added by User:CaeserJulius; i removed it like 2 weeks ago for the aforementioned reason, but then they re-added it back in just now, stating "It's not appropriate to remove content because you have an opinion".

Idk, what do others think? Anzasquiddles (talk) 16:16, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

It's just a trivia, and I like it. The use "hadron" and "quark" does give precedent to think about subatomic particles and iron is the most stable element to which other tend to go. This is general truth about elements not exlusive to stars.--Rocket Grunt 17:52, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Given that their designs all very clearly depict them to be made of some kind of metal, the simplest solution is that the name "Iron" was chosen because they all appear to be made of metal, and iron is a type of metal. If we're going to delve into speculation at all, I feel like we should start with the simplest explanation before we start jumping to more obscure connections like star death or subatomic particles, which have very tenuous connections to "iron". This trivia section is already ridiculously long, so I'm in favor of not including this speculation at all. Storm Aurora (talk) 18:07, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

I oppose its inclusion as well. Iron is a very common element and isn't particularly associated with stars. Landfish7 18:50, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

let's wait until Past Entei and Future Terrakion.

this is the most likely next paradox pokemon.Cookie39828 (talk) 18:46, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Paradox Pokémon in the original script.

Hi, I just made an edit and I'd like to explain it because I've seen no one talk about it. I think it should be made even more clear but I imagine people are going to remove the edit without checking what I'm saying, hence this post here. Basically, I've added the notion (and I think it should be reformulated to be even more apparent, because I've only put it as a detail) that Paradox Pokémon ARE from different timelines because the Japanese, original version, says it directly.

(てんそう) モンスターボールを転送し (つか) (こと) (じかんじく) 異なる時間軸のポケモンを 捕まえて (げんだい) (よ) 現代へと 呼びだすことができる It allows us to send Poké Balls in different timelines to catch Pokémon there and call them back to our time. (the exact word is "time axis", which is basically the word for timeline)

I've put this text as a source, but you can go look at the original elevator dialogue in the entire context. Basically, in the English version, it does this very awkward thing where it says the machine transports Poké Balls to another point in the timeline and brings them back in our time and, duh, that's how a time machine works. However, what the Japanese text says instead is that it transports Poké Balls to different timelines and brings them back in our time. If you want further proof, the Japanese wiki always had this notion, way before the DLC and its source is not Crystal Pool but the elevator scene. Even Japanese posts online about the AI and Paradox Pokémon talk about them being from different timelines. So basically we just had to wait for the DLC because the localization team was bad at their job, and discovered it now, while for those who read the Japanese text, it's been clear since the start. And the elevator scene acts as a moment of clarification, before and even after, the AI calls them ancient/future Pokémon, but this moment, which is supposed to explain the details of how the machine works and adds nothing in the localized version, comes off in the Japanese text as a more precise explanation : it calls them from other timelines.- unsigned comment from Enzoul777 (talk • contribs)

Time Axis can also be translated as point in time. I also wouldn't immediately assume Paradox Pokemon are just AU Pokemon since in every version of the game, the professor still talks about bringing them from the past/future and all media calls them ancient/future Pokemon. If we were to reach a middle ground, I would say they should be considered "Pokemon brought from the past/future of other timelines"

Also maybe something has changed or we are looking at different wikis, but Pokemon Wiki says they're from different points in time. JadedArts (talk) 03:14, 13 September 2024 (UTC)