Talk:Kiawe's Marowak

Headbutt?

Is it possible that Marowak knows Headbutt too? It seems to frequently headbutt Turtonator in its rematch, and afterwards when it got stuck in Turtonator's weak spot Azure/ChromeVoid42 (talk) 12:06, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

The act of heabutting does not equal the move headbutt.--ForceFire 12:21, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

it was in battle though, is there any evidence that says it can't be a known move? Scraggy headbutted people all the time too and that's a listed move Azure/ChromeVoid42 (talk) 12:29, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

Even if it was used offensively, it could've been Tackle, Slam, or any other move involving ramming oneself into their opponent.--ForceFire 14:35, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

Marowak?

Shouldn't it be Alolan Marowak? --PKMNAdventurer (talk) 17:19, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

Not really. 'Alolan' isn't so much part of Marowak's name as it is just a category it falls under. It'd be like having a page called 'Ash's Shiny Noctowl'. Watchermark (talk) 18:21, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

Moveset

Why is there apparently an issue over Marowak's moveset? Not a single move has been placed on the page, despite three of the four used being obvious. Headbutt, Flame Wheel and Bonemerang all appeared clearly in the episode; the latter two matched previous animations while the fact that Marowak's head shone before using Headbutt makes it almost certain that's the move being used. Shouldn't these at least be put? I mean, if it's wrong (and it wouldn't be the first time) we can always change it? Watchermark (talk) 22:43, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

Current Bulbapedia policy is that a move must be explicitly identified in order for us to attribute it. If it's not identified but people still think it has a unique animation, then you should wait for it to be okayed before adding it (anyone can have an opinion; waiting for approval will help avoid edit wars).

Also remember that the moves may be identified in the dub's CCs. Tiddlywinks (talk) 22:55, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

FWIW, your question in conjunction with an earlier question about the same issue shows exactly why we require explicit identification: You've concluded that Marowak's head shining means it's using Headbutt, while FinnishPokeFan92 observed the same thing and concluded it was Iron Head. You both can't be right, and you might both be wrong. And it will always be possible for disagreements to happen over these kind of "eye of the beholder" assumptions for any move that's not explicitly identified and doesn't have a unique animation. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 23:24, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

So.. Lemme get this straight: The mods decided on a shitty rule, did no announcements for it, AND it applies only starting with SM? Wow, honestly, that's kind of ridiculous. And this rule is kind of dumb because wild mons very rarely have their moves named, so... It's self-sabotage at its finest..--ShallowShaddoll (talk) 23:58, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

I know I explained it to a number of people when we decided it should be strictly enforced. (What I'm also saying there is that I believe it's been the ideal for a long time, but it was allowed to slide and/or may have gone mostly unnoticed. One of the older staff—especially one more familiar with anime matters—would know about that better than I.)

And you seem to think we're saying it's OK to assume for moves from XY or earlier, but that's absolutely not the case. It applies to any move move in any episode. If a move has previously been attributed that violates this rule, that should be fixed (or discussed). Tiddlywinks (talk) 00:07, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

But this rule is so ridiculous (would stay mad, or stupid, but don't want to offend people...): You're purposely stopping the flow of information instead of, I don't know, putting it up to a vote in the talk pages. Like, that would be much more reasonable. And, as beforementioned, wild mons don't have their moves named. What are you gonna do now, remove ~80 per cent of moves just 'cause it was used by a wild mon and Ash and co. didn't bother to call it by a name? Immediately, like half the mons should be removed from the Psychic section, for example.--ShallowShaddoll (talk) 00:15, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

If it went to a vote, it could easily be voted wrong. As a matter of basic policy, staff does not wish for Bulbapedia to have wrong information. We will not assume just because we can't know what the right answer is. We're not stopping any flow of information except for misinformation.

If you can't find citations for examples on Psychic or whatnot (there's an archive of closed caption scripts floating around somewhere, which is an easy way to also check for stuff that may not even be voiced) and the move doesn't have a unique animation, then yes, it should be removed. Tiddlywinks (talk) 00:27, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

This rule wasn't enforced much back in the day if at all, if I remember correctly. The problems that came from that loose mindset led to the current standard that moves must be spoken out to be confirmed. There must be some kind of barrier in place, because if not, people can just add whatever move they want. There have been plenty of instances where a Pokémon did a movement resembling a headbutt, doesn't mean it's actually Headbutt. And similar cases like that. In the end, Bulbapedia is still aiming to be as factual as possible. This can't be guaranteed if people can just go assume.

Having said that, I personally do believe it is sometimes enforced too strictly. There are cases where a move is unspoken but a good case can be made that it is a certain move. For example, when a move is visually so obviously a certain move but is still unspoken. However, even then it should still be discussed civilly on talk pages first, as again, we can't have people just adding whatever they like based on assumption. Ps. I have not been able to check out SM034 yet so I won't comment on Marowak's moves this time. ☼ BlazingFist ☼ 00:31, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

I've talked about this subject with Force Fire (talk • contribs), and while he hadn't seen this episode by the time I last heard, he seems to agree, based on my description, that at least Flame Wheel can be confirmed by its unique animation. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 06:25, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

I've just watched the episode and I think Flame Wheel is fine to be added, it looks as Flame Wheel has looked before. As for the other moves, I still stand by my explanations. The headbutting move could've been another move that involves ramming oneself into their opponent, while the bone move (the one said to be bonemerang) still could've been a stylized Bone Club. As for why I would think that, because it's Marowak's debut and the animator would probably want to make it look cool to appeal to the kids, so they could make a move appear more fancier. That and it wouldn't be the first time they've changed a move animation. As for the "Shadow Bone" move, it's still too early to say that it's Shadow Bone on the basis that it is a newly introduced move, so just wait for it to be stated (it could've been a stylized Flame Wheel; again to look cool and appeal to the kids).--ForceFire 06:45, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

I agree with Shadow Bone not being confirmed, since its a newly-introduced move with no basis for comparison. And Headbutt... yeah, I hadn't considered Iron Head as a possibility so that should be left alone for now. But I still think Flame Wheel and Bonemerang need to be added; Flame Wheel because the animation speaks for itself (literally a wheel of flame) and Bonemerang because, again, not only does it match what we've seen before but also I can't see what else it could be (I can't accept the fact it could be Bone Club since even the name denotes the fact the Pokémon would club the opponent with it. Also, as another question, where does this far-too strict "moves must be called to be identified" reach? Could we have a Pokémon use Flamethrower but not have it placed on the page on the basis it could be Flame Burst? Watchermark (talk) 10:14, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Moves have to be explicitly stated, period. All of them. The only reason we would go by animation if they have a unique animation. Moves like Flamethrower (and to an extent, Hydro Pump) have extremely generic animations that they could easily be another move that would have similar animations.--ForceFire 10:58, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

About the "Headbutt" move. Even if at the end of the episode Marowak was just hitting Tortunator without any additional visual effects, when it first used the move there was some shiny crystallization at the top of Marowak's head and a rainbow splash on impact. You can see for yourself by watching the episode online (I won't give any links, just search on the YouTube or something). So it was clearly a move with a unique animation. However, we can wait to hear that move named in further episodes as Marowak was caught and Kiawe for sure will use it in battles again. –Jedi Wolverine (talk) 10:59, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

I could be wrong, but how is Kiawe's Alolan Marowak throwing its bone considered to be using the move Bonemerang? It could have just been throwing it without doing the move. --PKMNAdventurer (talk) 21:52, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

Third Caught??

Sorry but shouldn't it be second caught as of now since Charizard hasn't been explicitly stated to be caught by him, just given to him. Right now it seems more like a family pokemon who helps him out with his job. We've never seen Charizard's ball nor is he under Kiawe's owned pokemon on his page. RBK (talk) 10:12, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

I agree it should be stated to be his second caught Pokémon. I changed it a few days ago, but my edit got reverted, so I hope this'll be discussed. Satsjoe (talk) 13:46, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

It's been said that Charizard was given to him so I don't understand why it is only seen as a Ride Pokemon. It's Kiawe's Pokemon that happens to be used by his as a personal ride Pokemon. It's the same with Lana's Lapras, which is also not listed as her's.--Rahl (talk) 13:55, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

Just because you gave a Pokemon to someone, it doesn't mean you gave the Poke Ball over. Look at SM033, Lana didn't technically give the Fishing Expert the Feebas in a Poke Ball, but she still gave it to him. Kiawe's grandfather probably gave it so Kiawe can use it as a Ride Pokemon. If not, then the fact that Kiawe is only now primarily using it for transport would be a slap in the face to his grandfather. Also, the wording still leaves it open to the interpretation that Kiawe caught it himself, which he didn't. Playerking95 (talk) 14:06, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

Closed Captions

Can someone tell me what exactly these are, and where do they come from because I'm really starting to doubt their athenticiy? Diamond Lanturn CodeName: 05308 15:33, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

They're the subtitle track used on the televised airings on Disney XD and on their VOD service (they're also used on Pokémon TV, when they become available there). --Abcboy (talk) 15:56, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

Okay, so how do these subtitles provide confirmation of Pokemon move names when those names were not called out? Diamond Lanturn CodeName: 05308 16:20, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with these specific CCs, but in case you don't know anything about closed captioning at all, the Wikipedia article can give you a good rundown that answers your question. It explains, for instance, that CCs often include descriptions of some on-screen action in addition to transcribing the audio portion. It doesn't surprise me at all that the Pokemon CCs apparently include move names while describing the on-screen action. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 17:00, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

Correct, most Pokémon cries are described in the CCs as "TURTONATOR: [PAINED]" or "TURTONATOR: [SHELL SMASH MOVE]", etc. It's likely directly from the VA's scripts. --Abcboy (talk) 17:10, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

I'm left feeling very dubious about these. Basically this is the dub naming moves that otherwise weren't named- we don't count it when the dub mentions a Pokemon's gender, so why this? You may know that I've often argued the topic of contention that is "assuming" Pokémon move names and I kinda feel like the writers of these closed captions are just assuming the move. Stuff like the Totem Raticate's Tail Whip (confirmed by Cc) when it just whacked the opponent with its tail- functionally different to Tail Whip and something we'd have all left as just the a whack with the tail and not a move. Then there is Ash's Litten with its Fury Swipes, erroneous Slash and Scratch attacks. I mean, come on- does anyone really believe these were all meant to be different moves? When the anime since AG has been very consistent with giving Pokemon static movesets. I can hardly explain how unbelievable it is that the writers would have intended Litten to have used all three moves. We have only ever known Ash to call out Scratch specifically, out I'm 100% certain it is the only one Ash will ever call because it's the only one Litten actually knows. Marowak is a simalur example- Iron Head and Headbutt? No way, I will guarantee you that Kiawe will never call Iron Head. I know I am usually on the other side of the move assuming argument but I really think this should be considered. I am certain that these closed captions are guilty of the same assuming that has been forbidden otherwise. Sometimes it's obvious, like Raticate's Hyper Beam and Marowak's Shadow Bone and the closed captions are right. I dont trust them, and if we can't use gender confirmation from the dub, I is wrong that we do this.

I don't expect anybody to give a monkeys about my opinion, this has been made very clear in the past few years but I feel that I may be proved right in the near future, the next time Maorwak gets some focus- I don't believe it used Flate Blitz, I still think it's Flame Wheel- when Kiawe actually calls the move Flame Wheel, we'll see Marowak preform the same move which these closed caption called Flare Blitz. When this happens, and I'm certain it will, I hope it'll make you consider the points I've just made. Diamond Lanturn CodeName: 05308 21:56, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

The subs are made by TPCI via DuArt. They're accurate.- unsigned comment from BlisseyandtheAquaJets (talk • contribs)

You misunderstand, I don't doubt the subs. Diamond Lanturn CodeName: 05308 22:09, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

I don't see how that proves they're accurate, as those are American companies. The captions can only be accurate if they originate from the Japanese anime staff. I understand 05308's concern, but I also think it's okay to report what the captions say as long as they don't contradict anything in the Japanese version. But as soon as, for example, Marowak's move is actually called Flame Wheel in an episode, we could get rid all moves based on those captions alone.--電禅Den Zen 22:24, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

This ^^ is all I wanted to hear! Thanks DZ! Diamond Lanturn CodeName: 05308 23:50, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

Marowak’s Gender

Can put it is officially male on the page since it was mentioned in SM131. --Feelitstill23 (talk) 17:32, 31 July 2019 (UTC)