Talk:Rival

Jun

Jun why isn't Jun included in this article seeing how he is the main Rival in Diamond and Pearl - unsigned comment from DSDark (talk • contribs)

He is, there's just no sprite of him uploaded yet. Tom Temprotran 03:42, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Aren't some of those characters "PKMN Trainers" and not "Rivals?" -Happy Mask Man 00:20, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Are Dawn and Lucas really considered rivals? You never battle them, and most of the time their Pokemon aren't as strong as yours. - unsigned comment from Dozla (talk • contribs)

Question

Is there a reason we are not showing May and Brendan's sprites? They are rivals aren't they? --☆ケンジガール 05:38, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Wally CAN weaken!

Interestingly, if the player's starter is Treeko, then Wally will be supereffective against the player's starter. As everyone knows, Psychic>Grass.Kirbysaur 22:36, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

No, Psychic is not super effective against Grass. The Dark Fiddler - Smarter than the average bear! 22:39, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

No, it's not. Psychic is 1x against Grass. If you compared this to a Psychic-type and Bulbasaur, that would be the case as Bulbasaur is part Poison-type. Treecko is only Grass, therefore it doesn't apply. UltimateSephiroth ^{(about me · chat · edits)} 22:40, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Oops, I guess I had accidentally mistaken Treeko for a Grass/Poison type. Sorry. Kirbysaur 16:38, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

It can weaken... If someone starts with Torchic and decides to evolve it. Kamus, the kpo... 03:39, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Rival

The article is about TRAINER CLASS named Rival, not sort of characters. Brendan, May, Wally, Lucas, Dawn and Barry never had this title so they shouldn't be there. Maybe there should be a separate article on Rivals (character) and Rival (the class). --Maxim 14:43, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

• Whether they are called it or not, they still are rivals. PKMN Trainer. Rival. It really doesn't matter. Ryuutakeshi 1:19 August 27, 2009

Blue in Yellow

I'll try to add the yellow sprite of blue on the page, cause it just seems appropriate. Don't worry I'll use the first one, the battles before the S.S. Anne.--DRAGONBEAST^X 03:28, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

May and Brendan - Psuedo Rivals?

I don't think May and Brendan should be in the same category as Dawn and Lucas. You never battle Dawn and Lucas. May and Brendan are a different story. I don't think Dawn and Lucas should even be on this page. They are not rivals, AT ALL. --ケンジのガール 03:25, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I (sort of) agree with Maxim's comment two sections above. ~ sol 03:52, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

  Still, they are no normal trainer class, they are part of the storyline, and they use a specific starter. Megamew

Harley?

It says he's is atleast as old as Brock. Should we compare them? Harley seems like he's atleast twenty,and Brock is around the 14-15 range. Lovely Rose 01:12, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Silver

we need silver's sprite to be removed from the page as on the nintendo website they've updated his sprite--DSDark 03:27, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually, someone needs to upload the new version. --エルレイド 03:29, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Wally - a Pseudo Rival!

He should be classified as pseudo-rival. He's simply an odd-one out in the rivals category. He has a preset name, doesn't get a starter, doesn't seem to own Pokedex, doesn't count as main game character and, the most important, he NEVER starts any heated rivalry with the player. The player meets him... three times, IIRC. His role in the game is MUCH SMALLER than opposite-gender player's. Indeed, he's much stronger than him/her, but that does NOT make him a true rival. Not every strong trainer is a rival. Bear with it, THERE IS NO TRUE RIVAL IN R/S/E. --Maxim 10:11, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I don't believe there are any "pseudo rivals" in RSE. You just have two rivals. That's it. With Brendan/May and Wally combined, you have the equivalent of what is a true rival. The only pseudo rivals are Dawn and Lucas. If you fight a trainer repeatedly on your quest, then they're a rival. Period. Calling them pseudo just because they aren't the last ones we fight or because they don't have a true starter is stupid. --ケンジのガール 03:55, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Silver..

His first sprite is still there,what about this one? I think it's from the Nintendo site,or maybe it's the Pokemon site(I can't recall). Is the picture too small? Lovely Rose 22:48, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, too small, probably. We'll wait on a bigger image. TTEchidna 23:19, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Wally and Brendan/May

I would say that Wally is a pseudo rival and Brendan/May the real rival. I mean, Blue, Silver and Pearl all live in the same town as the player, own a starter Pokémon from the professor, and you get to battle them during the game multiple times. The same applies for Brendan/May, except that they don't battle the player anymore after about 6 badges. Wally is totally different to the others, you have to battle him only twice during the game, he doesn't own a starter Pokémon and doesn't live in the same town. If you consider him a rival, you should also consider Steven Stone a rival (which is stupid, of course), since you meet him several times and in the end also battle with him. --Bisasam 09:35, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Silver sprite????

Should silver's sprite be removed?.... based on the recent trailer on the official website,, Silver's sprite is based on the official artwork.. just asking.. try to see it heres a screenshota:File: Silver_Commercial.PNG ....--GASPER^shut... 13:17, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Who's to say the sprite isn't in motion? Like the Platinum sprites. He could have the pose coming into the battle and then move to the other pose. --ケンジのガール 13:59, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Or he could be like Blue and change his sprite every so often. Turtwig A Contributions Talk 14:03, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

if you look close the img,the rival have a costume more similar to silver that the sprite we have already--kyokencl 14:11, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

This is the official sprite for Silver in HGSS (and yes, he does have an animation) But really, since this video isn't all that great of quality we should just wait till we can get a proper sprite up. --Ryuutakeshi 1:33 August 27 2009

If its not the official version of the sprite it needs to be removed --DSDark 03:05, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

It is official. It's just the beta. Beta =/= Unofficial. Let it go already... --ケンジのガール 03:24, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Rival Sprite(Silver)

Which one are we using?--Midnight Blue 02:08, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Never mind, I can't read I quess.--Midnight Blue 02:09, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Kotone and Gold are the Psuede Rivals?

Are they?--Midnight Blue 03:16, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

No. They're the pseudo rivals. :P —darklordtrom 05:46, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Pearl need "in the anime" section

Really needs it, like Silver or recently Blue, please --Ash 20:56, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Kotone and Hibiki/Gold

I completely and utterly fail to see how these two count as pseudo-rivals. You never battle them, or tag battle with them, or even see any of their Pokemon besides that Marill they play with.

I haven't played with a male PC yet, so I don't know what Kotone does, but in HG Hibiki just calls me up and tells me some lie about taking some Pokemon somewhere to see something interesting. That's all. 8( 梅子^❄_❅ 08:36, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Next time Kotone calls me in SS, I'll see if I can record it. TTEchidna 05:55, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Ronald

Wouldn’t Ronald from the TCG be classed as a rival? Mark and Mint are included in the player character section. I would add him myself but I don’t know how to work tables. Kingofall42 11:33, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Y in end of each name

shouldn't we add that most of the main rivals names end in Y (Gary, Wally, Barry) only silver was left and he is unnamed he could have a name ending in Y (ok it's just speculation).Badwolf1234 14:32, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

No, that's not important enough to really mention... -Sketch 14:34, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Wally vs. May/Brendan

Why is Wally, who only battles the player twice with a Pokemon that isn't even a starter as the lead member of his team, considered to be the player's rival, even though May or Brendan battle the player regularly with their starter being the traditional advantageous choice against the player's? May and Brendan even get their own battle theme, like almost all the other rivals, whereas Wally doesn't. They seem to fit the classic description of a "rival" way more than Wally does, even though he battles the player in Victory Road and can be battled again after that. Regardless, my question boils down to this: why him and not them? Is it just because they're the player character that isn't chosen that they're just lumped together with Lucas/Dawn and Ethan/Lyra? Teamrocketspy621 20:25, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree. I think Brendan/May are more of rivals and not "pseudo-rivals" until the end where Wally steps up. I think both characters, that is Brendan/May and Wally, are both rivals. Neither are considered pseudo because the both challenge the player continuously, unlike Dawn/Lucas and Ethan/Lyra who only aid the player. I think Brendan/May should be moved out of that "pseudo" box. Pocketfanmk 00:53, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

I also support this. Brendan/May had the Starter Pokémon that trumps yours, were fought at regular intervals...The only thing keeping Wally as the Rival is that he fights you at Victory Road, but that's only because by then your real rival had quit being a Trainer back in Lilycove.

So yeah, move Brendan/May out of the pesuo-rival box. Reign 01:03, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

(trainer class)

Is that really needed? This page talks about the entire existence of rivals in all of Pokémon, while calling it a trainer class leans toward the games. I'm for a split. CuboneKing 22:59, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't know why I moved it... —darklordtrom 08:52, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Pseudo rivals?

I don't think we should continue using this ambiguous term. The images suggest the difference between "main rivals" and "pseudo rivals" is that the second group are simply player characters, but, well, those would simply be player characters (already included in that article) and NPC's (they already appear in their region NPC template), though not necessarily rivals. The wording in the article seems to suggest that Wally isn't a main rival because he doesn't have a starter whose typing weakens the player's, but then where does Bel fit in? Blue in Yellow? In short, I think we should just stick with a simple, concise definition for a rival in the games. From Wiktionary, a rival is

A competitor (person, team, company, etc.) who is well known to another and has similar skills and achievements. Defeating a rival may be a primary or necessary goal of a competitor.

Taking from that, I think the following is a nice definition for "Pokémon game rival":

A Rival is a recurring character, introduced early in the games, who challenges the player repeatedly in different points of his or her journey and whose Pokémon's levels progress roughly at the same rate as the player's.

So basically, two things are important: that they are well known to each other (introduced early), and that they have similar skills and achievements (levels progress at same rate). This would leave as rivals: Blue, Silver, May or Brendan, Wally, Barry, Cheren, and Bel (basically those in the template), and we would eliminate the vague and contradictory "pseudo rival" term. Anyone agree? Memo³²⁶ 20:11, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

And give Lucas, Dawn, Ethan, and Lyra the boot? Hell yes I am all for it. 梅子^❀_✿ 20:38, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Trivia about similar pokemon

Ash has at least one species of Pokémon each of his major rivals own. Gary captured a Krabby, Paul uses a Torterra and Gliscor, Barry uses a Staraptor and Heracross, and Shooti uses a Janovy.

I think without mentioning Snivy this line can lead to confusion that Ash has a Janovu, while he has no (at least as of now) because of the word "species". So basicly Snivy should be noted because it is the real tie between the two of them, not Janovu. --ЫъГЬ 16:10, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

N

Well, I think N should be considered a rival, because he battles you most of the times and is in the Trainer class. Can I change the Unova section? - unsigned comment from MickBooterhood (talk • contribs)

He seems like a rival, but he actually is the king of Team Plasma, just like Giovanni is the leader of Team Rocket, that's why it isn't in here, or so I guess. Masatoshi_talk 13:06, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

N isn't a rival, he is an evil team leader. Using the Trainer class "^P_K^M_NTrainer" doesn't make someone a rival. --SnorlaxMonster 13:07, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but it is different from other bosses... He doesn't get close to the player and voluntarily asks it to have a 'friendly' battle, and even N does it often. At first we don't really know that he's the king, so from the start it could be the third rival... - unsigned comment from MickBooterhood (talk • contribs)

Perhaps he is meant to appear to be a rival at the first few encounters then you realize he is not a rival at all. Regardless, that is just speculation, and N is not a rival. --SnorlaxMonster 11:01, 5 February 2011 (UTC

Perhaps a pseudo-rival? - unsigned comment from MickBooterhood (talk • contribs)

No, he doesn't even fit the pseudo-rival type. He's not a rival, period. --HoennMaster 19:31, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Blue's sprite

Why is Blue's FireRed and LeafGreen sprite being used instead of his HeartGold and SoulSilver sprite? Because he is not a rival in that game? - unsigned comment from Spearbeedrill15 (talk • contribs)

Yes. Ataro 01:26, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Team Magma/Aqua (Manga)

Those don't really seem to fit in with the article in my opinion...or maybe the wording needs to be changed, because they're not individual characters like is mentioned in the Adventures section. It just seems strange that they're the only teams on the entire page. Toujours 00:13, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

BW the only game to have two rivals?

R/S/E had Wally and Brendan/May (depending on which player char u didn't choose), so doesn't that also count as two rivals?--Darknesslover5000 01:07, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Taken care of. --ケンジのガール 01:12, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

BW?

Ash's rivals and Cilans all have a mid evo starter pokemon from the unova reigon, noteworthy and where?Prinben 06:23, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Stephan has a middle evolution starter Pokémon? ^★Jo the Marten^★ ಠ_ಠ♥ 06:29, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

• Well no, you would know what I was on About if you do watch the anime, Trip Servine, Bianca Pignite and Burgundy Dewott?!Prinben 18:02, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

That is true, but Stephan is also Ash's rival and he does not have a middle evolution starter Pokémon, therefore it's not true. --HoennMaster 20:54, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Considering I knew that Stephan does not have a middle starter Pokémon, I think it's safe to assume that I watch the anime. That and I wrote a fair amount of the Best Wishes character articles, and provide screenshots of episodes. But you're right, Trip, Bianca, and Burgundy do have middle starter Pokémon. But they don't count for all rivals. I should also point out that "most rivals" won't cut it either since there are only four to begin with. ^★Jo the Marten^★ ಠ_ಠ♥ 22:03, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Should we add Sunglasses Krokorok as Pikachu's rival? Chomper4 14:09, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

How about......No? rivalaries between pokémon are few and far between, and the article is about rivalaries between humans. so just don't.--My r6g4rdz, TEH GIGA-UBER-1337-HAX0R(Mr-ex777) 14:47, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Why doesn't someone add atleast black2-and-white2 rival's artwork since we don't have his sprite yet?VENUS,MEGA,SCEPT,TORTE,SERP 22:20, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Roketto Dan / Satoshi???

The Roketto-dan have Kosaburo and Yamato as rivals, however, shouldn't they be Satoshi's rivals, as well. - unsigned comment from JacobTheDoduo (talk • contribs)

No. Their goals are completely different from Ash's. They are antagonists. Rivals refer to those who have similar goals. --ケンジのガール 00:27, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Rivalry (not the ability)

About those rivals mentioned in the article, the Article just expresses them as Rivals. I think we should make an article about the development of what became the relationship between them, in many cases the rivalry is the clash of their personalities, but the article could express the main reason of the rivalry: Ash and Gary is the broken Pokéball, Burgundy being a rival just for revenge at her loss for Cilan. The article could be not just limited to the human rivalry: Ash's Oshawott and Dawn's Piplup; Ash's Infernape and Paul's Electivire; the classic example of Zangoose and Seviper; Groudon and Kyogre; Tornadus and Thundrus; Heatmor and Durant; and so on... What do you think?

+I've read Pokémon Adventures and I saw on chapther a Zangoose and a Seviper fighting, but when they spotted Ruby and the Swimmer they attacked them insead of each other, the Swimmer mentioned that despite being bitter enemies, their rivalry is sacred, is it notable enough to put on the article or the article I'm planning?--Igor (talk) 23:11, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Calem and Serena

Should Calem and Serena be added as rivals? In the most recent demo, Calem was called Rival Calem. Iml908 (talk) 14:11, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Shauna

So Calem/Serena are obviously one of the rival characters, however, shauna seems to fit the role in the same way bianca did. She gets a pokemon the same time you do, choosing the starter weak to yours, and she is even the first one that you battle. She starts her adventure the same time you do (like all rivals). Trotz59 (talk) 16:22, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Ash's AG rival

What about the fat guy?--Elveonora (talk) 16:10, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

He has a name. And he was a League Rival, not a normal Rival like Gary, Paul, and Trip. Ataro (talk) 16:23, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

N, Trevor And Tierno?

Don't they count as rivals? Trevor's your rival in completing the Pokédex (an unorthodox rivalry, but still a rivalry), and you face off with not only him but both N and Tierno multiple times in battle throughout your journeys... I know N is also the head of Team Plasma and more of a friendly rival, but I think he counts.--BlackButterfree (talk) 00:21, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

We do not count N as a rival. As for Trevor and Tierno, I'm not sure. Berrenta (talk) 01:15, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't like Trevor and Tierno being included. (Put simply, I mostly just think they don't fit; they're too weird.) I wouldn't be surprised if the anime has said something like "It's cool having lots of rivals", but I don't really agree with that; I think there should only be one - maybe two - "actual" rivals. If that means making a requirement to only count characters who battle you frequently - i.e., cutting out Wally and Shauna - I'd be okay with that (I'm not that fond of Shauna being here either).

FWIW, I also haven't completed the main game at this point, so maybe I'd change my view a bit after the battle that's supposed to be on Route 19. ...For Shauna, at least. Trevor and Tierno are still weird. Tiddlywinks (talk) 17:17, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Has there been a reason for N's exclusion? The main one I found was that he was the leader of Team Plasma, like Giovanni with Team Rocket. But Ghetsis was more the leader, with N as his pawn. N's belief in truth/ideals can be interpreted as rivaling the player's, so him being a Rival makes sense. Iml908 (talk) 00:40, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that Wally should be cut out, I can understand the others, but wally is much more of a rival than Brendan/May. Brendan/May quit being a trainer long before the end of the game. While Wally continues to battle you 'til the very end and is the character that you can rematch after beating the elite four (just like almost every rival so far). I think Wally was designed to be the rival character while Brendan/May were player characters that just acted as secondary rivals (they are like Dawn/Lucas in Sinnoh games, but you battle them a few times).

I think that if Shauna, Trevor, and Tierno were not classified as rivals, then there should be a new classification for characters like them, as well as Ethan/Lyra, Dawn/Lucas, and N. They are all significant companion/rival-like characters, so it would make sense to make a new fandom term for these characters. I know Pseudo-rivals used to be a thing but isn't because it was redundant, but there are a lot more characters that can fit that title now. Trotz59 (talk) 21:47, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

N seems more like a rival to me than Wally. N is battled multiple times but Wally is only battled twice. Maybe Wally could be one since the player can rematch him. I wouldn't say N isn't one because he is the leader of Team Plasma.----Ethan (Discussion) 04:46, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

I think I'd like having something like "primary rivals" (the character who "counter-picked" the player and chose the starter that the player's is weak to) and "secondary rivals" (more or less any "rival-like" friends or acquaintances who the player battles repeatedly over the course of the game). Because I really think there's a bit of a problem when the characters who counter-picked the player aren't differentiated from whoever else broadly fits the description of "rival".

If it were all up to me, I'd just say the "secondary" rivals shouldn't be on this page at all. But I think everyone can be happy if we just separate the characters into the inherently special "primary" rivals and the remaining "secondary" rivals. Tiddlywinks (talk) 06:44, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that the trainer who counter-picks your starter is the primary rival. Mostly because that means that Brendan and May would be primary rivals, when the rival between them ends. And by ends, I mean it ends before the rival even has their counter-picked starter fully evolved. Also, that would mean that Bianca is a secondary rival to Cheren, when the game introduces both characters in the same way, and they both fit equal amounts of other requirements of being a rival. I think if we went with a "primary" and "secondary" rival system, then the rematch characters (Blue, Silver, Wally, Barry, Cheren, Bianca, Hugh, and Serena/Calem) should be primary, considering that the rivalry never ends (since you can rematch them at any point). This would mean that the non-rematch rivals (Brendan/May, possibly N?, Shauna, Tierno, and Trevor) would be secondary. I know that people tend to disagree on Brendan/May versus Wally, however Wally is the character that can be rematched, while Brendan/May literally aren't even trainers anymore by Lilycove, let alone rivals. Also, Wally may only have two canonized battles, but Brendan/May only have four (and that's all they get, while Wally could end up being 10+). Trotz59 (talk) 17:58, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

I still think the characters who counter-pick you should be divided from everyone else... Maybe just separate everyone into "Counter-picking rivals" and "Other rivals"? Tiddlywinks (talk) 18:29, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Gladion

Should Gladion be considered a rival? He can be fought before the League like other rivals, and his Silvally changes type to be super effective against the Player's starter. Iml908 (talk) 00:04, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

I don't think the League thing really counts as a justification — Hau is the rival you fight before the League. Gladion is way back before the equivalent of Victory Road. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 06:08, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

I don't think that makes too much of a difference: Most rivals are fought shortly before the eight Gym (Bianca and Shauna/Tierno/Trevor, although this has only happened in games that had other rivals, admittedly), shortly before Victory Road (Blue and Cheren), inside of Victory Road (Silver, Wally, Hugh, and Calem/Serena), or shortly before challenging the Pokémon League (Barry and Hau). The only exception to this so far has been Brendan/May (who at the very least get an extra battle after the credits in ORAS). PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 06:18, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

It's definitely a tough call. But I think the strongest case to be made against including him as a rival is that unlike past rivals (even ones who don't use typical starters like Wally, Tierno, and Trevor), Gladion is not encountered at or near the beginning of your journey—rather, you don't encounter him for the first time until you have already cleared an entire island's trial and grand trial. —Andy^P_K^M_N (talk) 16:17, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

The problem with that argument is that it ignores all of the other evidence that proves he is a rival. In another instance, during the Battle Royale, you verse both him and Hau as if they are your rival. Interestingly, the professor is also one you verse, with him holding the starter that counters your own Pokemon as well when you verse him at the Pokemon League. This brings up an argument for the Professor being your rival as well. You meet him in the beginning, he has the starter Pokemon that counters you when you verse him in the Pokemon League. In this case, the Professor also lacks one requirement for being a rival just like Gladion. So if Gladion is the rival, so is the professor since both lack one of the "requirements". One lacks the "meets during the beginning of the journey" and the other lacks "beats the island challenges with you." Another thing to consider is that the first Island is actually just a "tutorial" since its a drastically different Pokemon game. That you meet Gladion on the second Island when your adventure truly begins. TuxKick (talk) 19:08, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

I think if you're trying to claim the professor is a rival, you need to step back and re-examine your criteria for "rival." Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 20:02, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

I think you need to re-examine that tone, its condescending and against code of conduct. I gave examples as to how one can even consider Professor Kukui a rival just like Gladion. The point being that the criteria for rival is vague. Step back and re-examine the code of conduct before posting next time. TuxKick (talk) 20:56, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

If we're getting technical, you don't battle Wally until Mauville City, after two Gym Battles. Sure, we meet him all the way back in Petalburg, but there he only serves as the capture tutor. He doesn't technically become a rival until you fight him in Mauville. Iml908 (talk) 14:49, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

I personally feel that he is a rival because he still battles you multiple times throughout the story, has a signature Pokemon that evolves near the end (Type: Null) and counters your starter by changing Silvally's type. He might not have a normal starter, but neither do Wally, Tierno, and Trevor, and they're still considered your rivals. Much like the rivals from XY and ORAS, as well as fellow rival Hau, near the end of the story he is able to use a battle ability that had previously just been limited to just the PC (Z-moves). He's pretty obviously intended to be the Wally to Hau's May/Brendan. --Geektreecko (talk) 00:21, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

I actually feel the same. I do think Gladion is a rival. He pretty much has the role of one in the game. Crummymummy (talk) 00:55, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

I agree as well, again given that he appears and challenges the player throughout the game which is similar to how a rival would act. With Professor Kukui, definitely no. My reason is that prior to the Pokémon League, all he does is just mere tutorial battles, and not real battles against the player, so he couldn't be considered a rival (similar with Professor Sycamore in X and Y as he didn't play the role of a main rival in the plot despite facing the player twice). -Tyler53841 (talk) 04:05, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

I also agree that Gladion is a Wally-equivalent rival, and the Professor is definitely not. Nutter Butter (talk) 04:18, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

So have we come to a conclusion? Should Gladion be added to the page? --Geektreecko (talk) 00:19, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Force Fire, a staff member, has explicitly said Gladion should not be added. Staff opinion trumps an echo chamber of ordinary users. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 06:10, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

I only added Gladion to the message because it kept getting added when there has not been a consensus yet. It's not meant to be taken as the staff's final decision.--ForceFire 06:37, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

We agree that Gladion qualifies as a rival. He fits the criteria in the intro at least as well as some of the listed XY rivals. (The "goal" part of the intro is a relatively weak criteria. Battling the player repeatedly, on the other hand, is a strong criteria.) Tiddlywinks (talk) 07:03, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Adminstrative authority does not trump an "echo chamber of ordinary users" when there is no clear basis for Gladion's exclusion (other than, as Force Fire said, there initially being no clear consensus for Gladion, which is perfectly understandable). N is excluded because he already fulfills the role of a villainous team leader, but Gladion is not even an admin of Team Skull, let alone the leader (not to mention that he leaves the team prior to his final story battle with you). Please don't treat the discussion as if a decision was already set in stone. PokemonMasterJamal3 (talk) 07:43, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Administrative authority DOES trump a discussion of ordinary users - but a discussion of ordinary users can convince the administrators to change their mind, if they have good enough arguments. In this case, Gladion definitely falls into the role of a rival. The "similar goal" criteria is a terrible one, given that a character's "goal", in Pokémon is just words. Whether or not a character is a rival should be judged on their actions instead. Gladion is one of your peers, a young trainer who's still relatively new to training and who grows in experience over the course of the story. Hho repeatedly challenges you to battle over the course of the main story; largely for the sole purpose of testing his strength against you (not to keep you from thwarting his plans. Narratively speaking, he clearly plays the role of a rival. --Evil Figment (talk) 15:50, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Gladion (anime)

Should we say something about Gladion being Ash's rival in the anime? Even though nothing much has happened with him yet, the episode he first appears in is called 'A Glaring Rivalry' and the narrator refers to him as a rival. Eeveetree9 (talk) 11:44, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Possible change

Yesterday, I tried adding a new change to how the rivals are formatted (probably should have done this in the first place):

RGBYFRLG

GSCHGSS

RSEORAS

DPPt

BW

B2W2

XY

SM

Blue*

Silver*

Brendan*

May*

Wally

Barry*

Cheren

Bianca

Hugh*

Calem*

Serena*

Shauna

Tierno

Trevor

Hau

Gladion

The rivals, this way, are in the same style as the player characters, which makes sense because the rival and the player are supposed to be interconnected like that. Also, I never really liked how Rivals were labeled with a specific region. It just made them like champions, and Hugh made it so a region could have different rivals at different times. Plus, Wally appears outside of Hoenn. So should this at least be considered? Iml908 (talk) 22:48, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Since the tooltips I added to the Player character tables a few months ago were removed by the admins (by reason that they don't work in mobile browser apps), then why do they keep the tooltips in the Rival table, if they don't work in mobile browsers? Maybe they should be removed as well, regardless of how useful they are.

Also, consider adding the Let's Go rival to your proposed table above to keep it up to date with ongoing events, but without the color2 template so it doesn't link to anything undesired (like ??? automatically redirecting to ??? (type) as it once happened with the Player character tables until they were replaced with non-linking TBD). SilSinn (Pokémon Sun Trainer ID: 768426) (talk) 06:21, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

N re-evaluated as a rival

I think N fits the criteria perfectly to be considered a rival and I would propose we add him to the page. I've seen no good arguments to the contrary except that N is a member of an evil team which I feel should not disqualify him from being considered as so is Gladion and yet he is generally considered a rival character amongst most of the fandom. Nightfall217 (talk) 02:01, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

The things is though, is that to be a rival, the character must strive for a same or similar goal as the player, typically by different methods. N doesn't do that. His goals are very different from the players, and while this puts them at odds with each other, it is not in a way that makes them rivals. However, in Gladion's case, he initally antagonizes the character, but then switches over to sharing goals, stop Lusamine and keep Nebby safe. He additionally has a team that adapts to the player's starter choice, and while that's not a necessity, it is certainly an extra tick of favour towards him being a rival. Nikkie2571 (talk) 10:11, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Proper definition of a rival and correct categorization

This article blows my mind when I read it. A couple of characters who are considered rivals do not fit the description presented in the article. I will quote a fragment of the current version: A rival is one of the main characters in the Pokémon games that is well known to the protagonist and has similar skills, goals, and achievements. This simple sentence means that whoever is your rival should strive for the same objective while possessing actual strength to compete with you. Having this with mind, I will write what is mind-boggling to me.

1. Shauna. She's a girl who starts the journey with you but fails to find a reason for it other than having fun. She neither plans to complete the Pokedex nor defeat the champion nor become strong unlike the player. There is basically no reason to include her on the list unless you change the definition of a rival to "a recurring character that battles the player sometimes". However, that definition would create even more problems since people like Sycamore would count. In my opinion, she should be removed from the list.

2. Tierno. Similarly to Shauna, he starts the journey with the player. The difference between him and Shauna is that he has a goal but it's different to the player's. It means he doesn't compete with you in anything. His team is honestly garbage as well so you can't say with a straight face that he has similar skills to the player. In my opinion, he should be removed from the list.

3. Trevor/May/Brendan. I am including all three in this point since all of them are similar. Their objective isn't exactly to beat the player or to defeat the champion but rather to fill the Pokedex. Since one of your goals in all main games is to do this, it's perfectly understandable to consider them rivals. Just like in the above-mentioned definition, they have similar goals and achievements (skills may be debatable but it's trivial). I only put this point here because I see people questioning Trevor's rival status.

Bottom line, Shauna and Tierno should be classified exactly the same as Lillie. Travelling companions rather than rivals. The only other solution I see to this incorrect categorization is to change the whole definition. Good luck with the latter though, since you may accidentally create something that includes N as a rival.- Celeb (talk) 13:08, 02 May 2020 (UTC)

Well, for me, Shauna, Tierno, and Trevor aren't technically rivals, but friends, since that's what their battle theme in the official soundtrack is called, Battle! (Friend), though that matters little for this discussion. In my opinion, the definition of Rival is either a trainer who starts their adventure at the same time as the player, regardless of the goals they develop later [May/Brendan, Bianca, Shauna, Tierno, Trevor], or a Trainer (not necessarily a bad guy) met at some point on the adventure whose goals are explicitly the same as or similar to the player, but with the express intent to be better than the player at said goal [--Starts with player: Blue, Silver, Barry, Cheren, Hugh, Serena/Calem, Hau, Hop. --Starts later: Wally, Gladion, Bede, Marnie, Klara/Avery]. While you may think said definition could include N, it does not, as N's goal is not shared with the player, N wanted to free pokémon, follow his truths/ideals, while the player in black/white went out to stop him as a representative of the opposite force and to prove that trainers and pokémon should be together. They fight, not because they strive for the same thing, but because they represent opposite ideologies, hence why they have opposing Unova dragons. Even though their battling is often amicable, this still doesn't make them rivals. Instead, they are opposites, amicable enemies, forces of opposition that will fight till the end of time.

In the case of Gladion however, while he is initially is a pseudo-member of team skull he quickly switches over to being a companion, and once the player reaches Mount Lanakila his dialogue almost explicitly states that he wishes to be a better trainer than the player: "…If you two are going to get even stronger, then I guess I can't let down my guard yet.", "Keep winning. Maybe I'll see you again if you do."

AND! during his title defense battles in Sun/Moon he explicitly calls himself the player's rival: ""What does a Pokémon Trainer really need to be successful? I guess everyone might have their own answer. But for me... I want the strongest rival for myself." While in UsUm there is an additional line after his first one: "I trained for a long time trying to figure that out." Showing that he trained himself specifically to try and prove himself better than the player.

Those dialogues alone clearly make Gladion more of a Rival than N, even regardless of the fact that Gladion fits my proposed criteria and N does not. Even though Gladion's goals are not static during the game, this does not disqualify him from growing into the role of a rival.

Also, while the first criteria I've provided certainly seems more like it describes a Travelling companion, all of the provided examples battle with the player at least once, at some point do want to be better than the player at something and are recurring enough to make them signifigant on the level of a rival, even if most of them grow out of being the player's rival [Brendan/May & Bianca go on to become assistants to professors, while Shauna, Tierno, and Trevor sorta fade from being a rival to follow their own goals separate from the player] making them the opposite of Gladion's case. Nikkie2571 (talk) 04:17, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

My edit.

I accidentally edited it before finishing the summary, so I'm explaining it here:

"This being their first battle is speculation. In fact, considering Blue has another Poké Ball and is sending Charmander while Red's Bulbasaur is already out, this is probably the optional battle in route 22." Ultra Ray (talk) 17:13, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

N is classified as a Rival in Pokemon Masters EX

I know it's a spin-off, but in Pokemon Masters EX there are theme skills based on the roles the characters play in their original games. N gets the Rival theme skill, so should his Rival status be re-evaluated? --Mr. Bonding (talk) 03:49, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

That is... definitely a point. I'm not sure how much weight to give said point, but it absolutely has some weight, even if only a little bit. Nikkie2571 (talk) 04:26, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

The term "rival" always had some form of subjectivity to it, and there was never a definition for them aside from 1 or 2 characters having the rival trainer class in the games. However, N does indeed have similar traits as to what a rival would usually, such as being battled throughout the game. Pokemon Masters giving the rivals theme skill, is one of the few times any of these characters have been labeled as a rival. However, characters like Serena and Calem seem to lack the rival theme skill in Masters. On another note, the Sync Pair stories section has their own character listings, and tends to organizes them by Player character then rival, then gym leader, and so on so forth. N's grouped with the Unova villains, while Blue has the champion spot instead of rival, however, Lillie is mushed between Hau and Gladion in the Alola rival spots, which implies that Lillie is a rival despite her lacking the rival theme skill. I feel like the overall definition of a rival is very muddied, and I think mentions of these things should at least mentioned on the page, even if the characters aren't on the main table. I'm not really even sure how much Masters should have an impact on the pages here, but there's clearly some form of canoncity with how characters are interpreted within Masters. TrainerSplash (talk) 22:54, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Tina's classification

I know not a lot of people know much about Tina from Pokémon Masters EX (I've been meaning to expand the explanation of her role in the games, but haven't gotten around to it yet), but I really don't think she should be considered a rival. She didn't compete in the first PML, she can't be battled in any main story or event area, and she didn't arrive on Pasio until long after the player did. She could be considered Paulo's rival, since they came from the same hometown and started their journeys at the same time and all, but I wouldn't call her a rival to the player. So, I think she should be removed from the list of rivals, and at best it can be mentioned that she and Paulo have a rivalry. (Though personally I don't think we should be mentioning rivalries between NPCs; if we were to note every time a character calls another character their rival, this page would be ridiculously long.) Storm Aurora (talk) 21:38, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

PE should be between SMUSUM and SS

Why is Trace between Blue and Silver instead of between Gladion and Hop? Ultra Ray (talk) 16:29, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Evidence for Cheren and Bianca as rivals

I disagree with the recent edit that changed the references for Cheren and Bianca being rivals. I think the dialogue where Bianca explicitly says she and her childhood friends (Bianca and Hilbert) are rivals is stronger evidence than a theme skill, since a) theme skills are given out really inconsistently (why does anni steven have battle facilty foe??) and b) they represent out-of-universe designations, not in-universe ones (no one is going to call Bettie a main character unless they're breaking the fourth wall). I think it should be changed back, but since it's just a difference of opinion, I thought I'd start a discussion here and see if we can come to a consensus. Storm Aurora (talk) 20:41, 27 June 2024 (UTC)