Talk:Nacli (Pokémon)

Origin

Force Fire, I know you said "no copyrighted stuff", but keep in mind that Pokémon and Mario are both owned by Nintendo, so it is possible that Nacli's design could have been inspired by the Super Mushroom from the Mario franchise. Nintendo games reference other Nintendo franchises quite a lot. Buzzfan120 (talk) 07:08, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

I don't know what the issue with Nacli currently is, but we DID state in Pokémon Egg's article that its design could have been inspired by Yoshi games. I don't see why one can be stated, while another cannot. Kikugi (talk) 07:37, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Well, one of the Yoshi Egg's earliest appearances was in a Yoshi game that was also developed by Game Freak. Buzzfan120 (talk) 17:12, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Waverunner56 (talk) 19:30, 29 November 2022 (UTC) (I accidentally put my signature in twice, and it will not allow me to remove it, please remove this signature)

Long time user of this wiki, first time poster adding to this discussion. I do understand the enforcement of the "no copyrighted stuff" rule on most articles, as allowing every little potential reference can muddy up the Origin section on almost every article. In this case of Nacli, and Naclstack/Garganacl, I do feel the references to Mario and Minecraft respectively are clearly noticeable in their designs. I believe a similar approach should be taken to Lokix, where the reference to Kamen Rider was noticeable enough to mention in a general way. For example: "Nacli's design appears to resemble a Super Mushroom from the Super Mario franchise." and "Naclstack appears to resemble the blocky artstyle of the Minecraft franchise."

In addition, I think it is important to remember that references to other media are not unheard of in the Pokémon Franchise. Tiny_Mushroom/Big_Mushroom have been staple items for the series since Generation II, and Rotom_(Pokémon), one of the flagship Pokémon of the series, is based on one of Gamefreak's earlier games Pulseman.

Waverunner56 (talk) 19:30, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

While I do see the Super Mushroom resemblance with Nacli, I'm at a loss with Garganacl. If anything, Naclstack would be more like a Minecraft mob, but even then, I'm not sure. Masatoshi talk 16:13, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Nacli only resembles the Super Mushroom consequence of both being mushrooms. Just because A and B are based off the same thing, doesn't mean A is based off B. The big/small mushroom article makes no mention of the Super Mushroom, and again would not be based off if it. They're mushrooms, so mushroom is the base origin. The Pulseman bit for Rotom is fine as Pulseman is a property of Game Freak. Game Freak is not going to get in trouble from itself.

As for the Minecraft origin, the only connection is the blocky appearance. Origins needs more than one thing connecting it to the source. The only mob I can see stack being similar to is the pig, but that doesn't mean it's based off thr Minecraft pig, becuase again, A and B sharing an origin doesn't mean A is based off B. For Garganacl, its blocky appearance is the only thing going for it. Sure, it looks like the Iron Golem, but once again, consequence of both being golems.

As for the while copyright thing, I should reiterate and say that I specifically said copyright characters, as in specific individuals. It's okay to say something is a reference to a genre or a franchise, but not a specific character.--ForceFire 17:01, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Well, to be fair, the Super Mushroom is an item, not a character. Nacli has a similar design, and again, it's another Nintendo property. Nintendo isn't going to get in trouble for referencing another one of their properties. They do it all the time. Look at the Super Mushroom, and then look at Nacli, and you'll see that their shapes are similar, their eyes are similar...there's no way Nintendo couldn't have been referencing itself. On the other hand, Minecraft is not a Nintendo property, so I'd have to agree that the Minecraft connection is a bit too much of a stretch. Anyway, I still don't understand why we can't mention Nacli's resemblance to Super Mushrooms, even if the Mario franchise is another Nintendo property. Just wondering. Buzzfan120 (talk) 17:08, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

May I ask why the Nacli line has its very apparent video game(s) reference removed from it's Origins section? It is clearly based on a Super Mario mushroom combined with a mushroom rock. As for the other two, they are based on the Minecraft aesthetic. This is not up for debate, it's simply what their designs are inspired by. Not including this vital information looks less like an attempt to be "neutral" and more like an attempt to ignore the elephant in the room. It's almost as if the info was purposely removed to annoy and throw off readers lol. Seriously, no favors are being done here by not including that information. This is especially unacceptable because Probopass DOES mention the Super Mario Series in it's Origin's section. This is Bulbapedia, not the Pokemon Wiki. - unsigned comment from Echo&TheBunearymen (talk • contribs)

Standard policy, basically. Bulbapedia is a site to document things, we do not misrepresent fanon or speculation as official. That's why Origin sections have to use those weird "may be"/"seems to be" kind of languages. That's also why we do not say that Pokémon designs reference other fictional characters or whatever, especially copyrighted ones. Franchises and general works are fine, i think the mods have loosened up on that after the whole Lokix debacle; but generally we do not want Bulbapedia to imply that a Pokémon's design is a copy of or inspired by another copyrighted character. Unless it is explicitly stated by the designer, of course, in which case we can go ahead and cite them (eg. Vanilluxe's page where James Turner talked about Stay Puft as an inspiration).

(Also, the page for Probopass does not mention Mario at all in the Origin section, so i frankly have no idea what you're talking about.)

Btw, it's worth mentioning that the designer of the Nacli line, Hitoshi Ariga, explicitly avoided answering any tweets replying to his Nacli design announcement on Twitter, asking if he designed them after Mario or Minecraft or whatever. He just replied "no, this is just salt rock and sedimentary rock" over and over — at least until he got fed up and turned off replies for that announcement tweet.

Anzasquiddles (talk) 19:54, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Yeah because you recently just removed it so that you can claim that I don't know what I'm talking about lol. You really think it's a total coincidence that it's just based on a mushroom rock while bearing a striking resemblance to the Super Mushroom to make a visual pun? C'mon now lmao. Not only that but Naclstack's model is practically identical to the farm animal models used in Minecraft. You're just tip-toeing around the obvious at this point.- unsigned comment from Echo&TheBunearymen (talk • contribs)

Do you not know how to check a page's history, or are you just gonna blame me for things i did not do (like editing the page for Probopass when the history for that page clearly shows i haven't done so since September)? And then ignore all the other points i made afterward? Anzasquiddles (talk) 20:29, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

To be fair i kinda don't really care if you ignore my arguments, but i draw the line at accusing me of doing things i did not do. I mean, you have never edited the Probopass page either. Anzasquiddles (talk) 20:31, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

All the points Anza said, and the designer has literally put it to bed regarding Nacli and it's evolutionary line being based off video game characters, they refuse to toy with that theory and just said it's salt and sedimentary rocks. End of.--ForceFire 01:54, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

I think the user was referring to this old revision of the Probopass page, which has since been reverted. As stated above, I would have to agree that the Minecraft comparison is a complete coincidence, but Nintendo references its other properties so often that I think we should make an exception for other Nintendo properties. And the Super Mushroom is an item, not a character. But rules are rules, and the rules say no copyrighted stuff--and apparently, that includes other Nintendo properties. Buzzfan120 (talk) 02:10, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Wow that is a pretty old edit. Glad that got undone though, lmao. Hell of a stretch if i've ever seen one.

But also, i still don't know about the super mushroom thing. Like, i get it, it looks kinda similar, but they don't really have much else in common other than that superficial similar look? It's not like Nacli can give you powerups or spawn out of boxes or anything.

Also this is admittedly pretty weak but i could argue that maybe the "Super Mushroom" look might be a coincidence. Like, if your design pitch is "it's a salt cube embedded in a rock that scrapes salt on the ground as it drags itself along the floor", of course you would put the salt cube on the bottom, and then the rock part on top. And you would make the rock look rounded and rugged to contrast the perfectly smooth salt cube. Bam, by sheer coincidence you end up making it look similar to a Mario mushroom. (that's how i think the thought process behind the design would probably go, anyway).

Anzasquiddles (talk) 02:26, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Pokémon and Mario are both owned by Nintendo. Nintendo isn't going to get in trouble for referencing one of its own properties. They do it all the time. That's why I think we should be allowed to mention other Nintendo properties. (However, I would have to agree that comparing Probopass' design to Mario is way too much of a stretch.) Buzzfan120 (talk) 03:35, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

(resetting indent)Regarding the Minecraft thing, Naclstack's origin section currently says it may be inspired by voxel artwork. This is a generic term for the art style Minecraft uses, so it adheres to the rules. It's also more accurate honestly - it's not like Minecraft invented voxels, and they're certainly not the only piece of media that uses that sort of art style (look at Pokémon Quest, for instance) --Boblers (talk) 14:46, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Snails?

I'm looking at Nacli, and it sort of looks like a snail. Could this be another possible origin? Power-Point Panpour (talk) 04:43, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

No.- unsigned comment from Echo&TheBunearymen (talk • contribs)

This might have some merit, I think. Nacli travels by sliding along the ground, and it leaves a trail, both traits similar to snails. There's some potential irony there too, since salt generally has adverse effects on snails. --Boblers (talk) 21:20, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Eh it's a fun fan theory but seems like a stretch otherwise. Landfish7 23:08, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Looks nothing like a snail...--ForceFire 01:54, 19 January 2023 (UTC)