Talk:Pokémon Red and Green beta

Concept art

Where can i get a bigger picture of it?--Pokéboy93 03:35, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't know about the picture, but I know that we don't use citations, so I'm totally erasing that citation.--DRAGONBEAST^X 21:23, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

We do know the female character was planned, we just need a picture. TTEchidna 23:07, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

There is more concept art here: http://www.betaarchive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=8356 Manomow 23:04, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Leaf

Should someone put this picture in article?: [1].. Lovely Rose 22:11, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Not necessarily Leaf, as it's an old picture. We have it elsewhere, though. I'm not sure where exactly, but I've seen it. —darklordtrom 23:25, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Was it true?

There was supposed to be like seven versions of the games but gamefreak could not afford it.--Pokéboy93 01:18, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Where in the world have you read or listened to that? Pokemon lover 21:57, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I read it a long time ago in some magazine talking about some games that were being developed in japan.--Pokéboy93 19:22, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

I think I’ve read that too... perhaps an interview with Satoshi Tajiri or Shigeru Miyamoto? I think maybe it wasn’t about finance so much as taking advice from a senior game designer about simplifying in order to get it done( like how Zelda’s Triforce trilogy became the Oracle duo). Still, I wouldn’t add it unless someone finds the interview for reference. --LaprasBoi 21:48, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Do you think we should try to get this confirmed? Or would it not matter--Pokéboy93 01:24, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Beta names of Pokémon

Is it worth mentioning reasons why the names were changed? For example, the fact that it would impossible to trademark words like "Lucky" and "dodo"? --NP Chilla 16:37, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Umm...some of the names there are the same... ^ht14 18:34, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

That's not the issue; the issue is that they were changed for a second time and possible reasons behind it. :) NP Chilla 16:44, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

The other concept art?

Does the other concept art count? The "Capsule Monsters" ones. Should they be mentioned? - unsigned comment from Lovely Rose (talk • contribs)

If better quality ones can be found, this article might want them. —darklordtrom 23:25, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Hm..Sorry,I don't know of any better quality ones. Lovely Rose 03:29, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Incorrect Translation

While no beta Pokémon remains in the coding, it is interesting to note that the official website for Super Smash Bros. lists a character from the Pokémon franchise called ポケモンのだれか, whose name translates to "Who of Pokémon?". It is possible that the name was used as a "cover-up" to not reveal the name of an unused Pokémon. However, it can also mean that it just sends out a random Pokémon, as there are other obscure characters in the list, such as James Bond and Ash Ketchum.

---

... It says "Somebody from Pokemon". ("Some Pokemon" would probably be a smoother translation.) People who barely speak japanese (if at all) should not be jumping to conclusions. Contextually, the meaning is pretty clear.

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/n01/n64/software/nus_p_nalj/smash/PostResult2.html

Now that I look at this website further, it's just an opinion poll. "Most desired characters if they made a sequel to Smash Bros" (Hence characters like Ash Ketchum and James Bond [goldeneye was popular at the time] appearing). So really it's completely irrelevant. Lugia was probably on the list because he already existed in japan.

Neat find, umm lets see what others think.--Midnight Blue 03:01, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Umm, there's nothing else to discuss about it.O_o I checked the dates and this poll was from shortly before the Lugia movie opened in theatres in Japan. And I speak Japanese, so I know what the poll says.

Text when using Cut outside of battle

I very faintly recall when seeing an official guide, there was a screenshot of a Pokémon using Cut outside of battle. However, I think the text in the screenshot said something like "[Pokémon] cut down the bush!" (unfortunately, my memory is faint here, so I'm not 100% sure about this). However, the final version says "[Pokémon] hacked away with Cut!" Does anybody know for a fact whether this is true or not? Blaziken257 03:43, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

That may very well be true, stuff like that does appear in the guides. I know the instruction manual has a bunch of beta screenshots in it (Poké Mart says "Shop", "THE BROCK wants to fight") ZestyCactus 04:16, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

The "Shop" part is only in the Japanese version. I think. I might need to check.--Midnight Blue 04:18, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I've got JP Red and they all say "Shop", which as we all know was changed to "Mart" for w/e reason. Buuuut in the English R/B manuals the screenshots still say "Shop" ;D ZestyCactus 04:20, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

That's interesting, and I know they called a Great Ball a Super Ball in one picture.--Midnight Blue 04:22, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I think the English version is actually the only one that says "Mart." Once I played a Spanish version, and it said... "Shop" (which doesn't make sense, as the proper word is "tienda"). I think I saw other foreign language versions with "Shop" too. Blaziken257 12:58, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Ookido-sensei

We have a section about Oak having a Pokemon team programmed into the game, but it doesn't mention that this character was known as Ookido-sensei (オーキドせんせい, rather than Ookido-hakase オーキドはかせ) in the Japanese version. (Ref: Japanese wiki, note Youtube link.) Is this worth mentioning? 梅子^❀_✿ 23:32, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

What do the two names mean in English? Redstar 09:24, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

"Hakase" is "professor/doctor/etc." and "sensei" is "teacher/master/etc."... roughly. "Sensei" can mean many things in different contexts. :P 梅子^❀_✿ 15:31, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Regarding the Badges beta

When used outside of battle, they have another strange effect - after the throwing animation, the music changes to a strange, unused tune not heard anywhere else.

Anyone have a YouTube or the like link to said "strange unused tune"? Does anybody have it? Fairy Red 07:30, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

"The BROCK" wants to Fight. Would adding a Pictures help?

I have the English/Dutch Manual that is sold in Europe. There is "The BROCK wants to Fight" Image in the Manual. Should I scan it? Also the Route 1 Page has TWO types of sign posts, for the same sign. Shop is shown on the map of Virddian, Want that too? Big Nutter 14:45, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Yeah. Make sure it's a good quality scan though. —darklordtrom 07:59, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Something I noticed when checking locations by index number in Generation I

Identifiers/Index Numbers 00 (0) to 0A (10) are the main towns and cities such as Pallet Town, Pewter City, Viridian City etc. 0C (12) is the first route i.e. Route 1. Noticing this I developed a Gameshark code 010B5ED3 for use on Pokémon Red/Blue to take the player to location #11 (0B). It crashes the game if you activate the code when entering through a door but if you force the game to display it on the Town Map it is directly north of the Pokémon League, do you think this is probably just a pure coincidence? There is no defined data for its name, so the game refers to it as "PALLET TOWN". --Chickasaurus 13:43, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Title change

Should we change the title of the article from "Pokémon Red and Green beta" to "Generation I beta" or something to that effect? It's because from the info we have in the article, we are mentioning aspects of the betas of all the Generation I games, not just of Red and Green. Thus, the current title is unfitting when related to the contents. ポケモンあいこうか 17:00, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I'd usually say we should leave it at Red & Green because the finished R&G is kind of the beta for Blue/RB/Yellow... but there is a bunch of information in this article that only applies to Blue/international RB/Yellow, and there's also plenty that applies to all Generation I versions. In short, I think a move would be appropriate. --ZestyCactus 14:31, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

"The beta?" In general the original assumption of there actually being a single 'beta version' of a Pokémon game with each and every feature known of that game is quite speculative. There is no solid proof but game developers usually do not simply produce two versions of the game (e.g. pre-release and release). Instead, they usually save many revisions (versions) of the game, for example lots of prototype versions of many of the classic Sonic games have been leaked, even those for the same game. There's also the distinction between Alpha and Beta; Alpha denotes when testing techniques are very brief and the product is not feature complete (note planned features are not always the only final features). Borderline between Alpha and Beta is probably what you mean, although many features are often added (or removed) in later Beta stages too, maybe due to technical limitations or a good 'brain-wave'.

I'd prefer that we just move every page to "Prototype and scrapped features of (Game Series)". --Chickasaurus 17:19, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

I say it's best as it is. Why?

First, we have a format. And that format is to have articles for each individual game, not for whole generations. If we change this into "Generation I Beta", then we'd have to merge GS and Crystal's Beta articles into one single article with the name "Generation II Beta", and even worse, all the Gen III and IV games, to keep consistency, and we know that would not be the best move. It's better to leave it as it is for the sake of consistency. Second, Red and Blue is Red and Green with different names and translated text, not different games. I don't eat the universal assumption that they are different games, since they retain Red and Green's version exclusive Pokémon and even keep glitches that were not present anymore in Blue but were in Red and Green (Missingno.); the only thing that was carried over from Blue was its graphics and the evolving Raichu text in Cinnabar, but otherwise, their still Red and Green with Blue's updated graphics. Calling them different games just because of minor changes would be like considering Kin and Gin different games from Gold and Silver because of the Teddiursa and Phanpy lines as vesion exclusives being switched from the Japanese versions -it just don't make sense. Third. The "exclusive English Red and Blue beta content" consists in translated text only ("The BROCK" and different Pokémon names), not actual elements of their own, so it doesn't really count as beta for different/new games, but rather as beta text for a LOCALIZED VERSION OF THE ORIGINAL GAMES. With all of this in mind, it can be well concluded that Japanese Red and Green (or Aka and Midori if you prefer) and International Red and Blue are the same game, not different ones, thus, is there still any true reason left to rename the article? The best we can do in my opinion is to rename it "Red, Green AND BLUE Beta" and split the exclusive Yellow beta content (is there actually any beta content exclusive to Yellow in the article?) into a separate article to keep up with the other generations' beta articles. Veggietable 17:00, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

@"is there actually any beta content exclusive to Yellow in the article?". Not much, the unused battle system using the dialogue string "Hurry, get away" when you attempt to attack and an unused soundtrack (only existing in the Pikachu's Beach/ bonus trainer soundbank) --Chickasaurus 19:47, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Actually, our Red and Blue's game engine is derived from the Japanese Blue version which was notably different than that of the original Red and Green. Though, calling this article "Pokémon Red and Green beta" is potentially misguiding because it implies that all of the unused elements of Red/Blue/Yellow were originally planned to be included in the original Red/Green to begin with, which would be speculation if anything because of the (exclusive) unused content within Pokémon Yellow; it doesn't exist in the newer Pokémon Red/Blue engine, neither the original Pokémon Red/Green. I don't see a problem with making a separate article for Pokémon Yellow, we have "Pokémon Crystal Beta" which would be of about the same size of a "Pokémon Yellow Beta" (though I prefer we just use something in the title like 'unused content' instead of beta, we have concept art which is more likely to be alpha/pre-alpha content) . --Chickasaurus 20:11, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

I acknowledged the fact that our Red and Blue were made from Blue's engine, but IN CONTENT, they are still Red and Green (I detailedly explained why I consider it that way), plus there are no Japanese Blue nor English Red and Blue exclusive TRUE beta elements (aside from text translations in the case of the English RB), so my point still stands, and thus, I keep my suggestion: in my opinion, the best is to rename the article, but not "Gen I beta", but rather into "Red, Green and Blue beta" (since Red and Blue are nothing but debugged versions of Red and Green, not independent games) and split the Yellow elements into a separate article like those of Crystal, Emerald and Platinum.Veggietable 05:24, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that sounds like a good idea. --Chickasaurus 08:29, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

There are some parts of the article that refer to international Red/Blue but not Japanese Red/Green, like the "The Misty wants to fight" section. Flicky1991 13:53, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Actually yes that's right, "The" included prior to a trainer class didn't have an equivalent transliteration "ザ" in the original Red and Green, though Veggietable acknowledges this. Are you also trying to suggest that added text (unused of course) (but not direct transliterations) aren't notable too Veggietable? Some of the temporary placeholder names used in American promotions like "Ness" for Lapras weren't direct transliterations of the Japanese names. Also, thought someone would be interested, transliterated (though it might not be actually?) text in only the localized Red/Blue outside of Japan refers to an old in-game trade exclusive to Japanese Blue, where you receive a Beedrill but it's now referred to as "CHIKUCHIKU". --Chickasaurus 17:40, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

I already DID aknowledged that the "The BROCK" addition in the international versions as American-original, but that comes because of the different sentence structures in Japanese and English, where a pronoun isn't needed in Japanese but is in English, so, while still "original" material in the beta English releases, it derives from translation issues, and thus, my original point (which is that all the "changes" made in the international releases where made due to localization ) still stands and remains congruent. As I told a couple of times before, conseidering them separate games just for minor additions is not quite congruent, and going by this logic, Japanese and International versions of HGSS must be considered different games too (and as such, get separate articles or the article be renamed into "Generation II remakes") just because one has a Game Corner and the other has Voltorb Flip -it just don't make sense. Had Red and Blue kept Blue's CONTENT features (version exclusives, in-game trades, removal of Missingno., et al) or introduced brand-new features like Yellow did, then yes, I'd say they are differeht games and that the article must be splitted into "RG beta" and "RB beta" or me renamed "Gen I Beta", but it wasn't the case. That's why to avoid confusion I suggested (and I feel honored that my suggetsion was put on the main article) instead to rename it "Red, Green and Blue beta", thus acknowledging the identity of Blue and Red and Blue, if not as separate games, at least as different revisions of the game deserving mention in the article's title. If you still want the distintion to be made, the article could have a "localization beta" sub-section and put there the Pokémon names and the "The Brock" thing. To make it shorter, adressing your specific question of "Are you also trying to suggest that added text (unused of course) (but not direct transliterations) aren't notable too Veggietable?", my answer is: "I'm not saying that is not notable, just that it's not enough notable to be considered A DIFFERENT GAME", after all, international releases OF EVERYTHING are changed, because according to context, we can't always get direct translation/transilteration -we instead get adaptations, and such, names or sentences might be added or removed. If we considered everything that is not A DIRECT TRANSLATION to be a different entity dererving its own article, then half of the Pokémon must be considered different from their Japanese counterparts (it's like saying "Lizardon is already an English word so it didn't need anything more than a romaji transilteration, but instead we got Charizard; since they have different names, then it's original content and thus they must be different Pokémon"). Its the same: International Green got its named changed into Blue and got some changes ("The BROCK") due to localization, but nothing more. The in-game trade refering to a Blue event I think was a slip from the localization team caused by the use of Blue's engine, but the actual trade was still that of Red and Green, that's why I still consider them Red and Green. Veggietable 23:40, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

I actually like your idea, Veggie. Let's rename this to Pokémon Red, Green, and Blue beta and create Pokémon Yellow beta. And speaking of the latter, would it be something like this? ポケモンあいこうか 23:26, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not against your idea Veggie. [Actually it was from an in-game Japanese Blue exclusive trade (Butterfree for Beedrill) where "CHIKUCHIKU" is the Beedrill according to Meowth346 and the 39 MISSINGNO. were never removed in Japanese Blue].

I'm not trying to make any distinctions of unused content between Red/Green/Blue and the Japanese Blue such that they require different pages, I was just trying to outline what the differences were before jumping to any conclusions. I agree with your idea, that having a separate page for Japanese Blue would be similar to "making separate pages for Pokémon Kin and Gin", (there are a few dialogue strings which were never translated for Gold and Silver relating to a debugging interface in Japanese Kin and Gin but it doesn't matter). I was only suggesting that we use the format "Prototype and scrapped features of (XXX)" because concept art does not class as beta, it is alpha/pre-alpha content. I agree that we could have two separate articles about Red/Green/Blue, Yellow and implement any 'localization beta' content into their own sections. --Chickasaurus 12:54, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

OK, Then I'm completely fine with it. So, who decides if the rename is done? By the way, Pokémon lover's draft for Yellow's article is very good to be honest. Veggietable 16:05, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Yellow beta got its article already, so should we move this to Red, Green, and Blue beta or not? It'd make sense if it was moved but I'm not sure who has the last word on this. And thanks for the compliment, Veggie. xD ポケモンあいこうか 20:08, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Red and Green are just the same as Red and Blue worldwide. I oppose moving. Pokered4000 06:18, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes (I do agree in that they're the same as you can see if your ead my previous comments) BUUUUT they are known as Pokémon Red and Blue worldwide, (and this article contains some localization errors from the out-of-Japan release) so it would fit better to have the international names (that is Red and Blue) along with the original ones (Red and Green), thus "Red, Green and Blue beta". Veggietable 23:07, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Should I include this?

A tentative 'debug menu' can be accessed via the "Game Freak" screen. Only in Pokémon Yellow if the title screen is loaded with an invalid sound font a text box will appear below the "Game Freak" screen and the equivalent of the 'item obtained' sound will play, although the sound is only noticeable if the sound-font is quickly changed back to its usual default. The menu can be scrolled through, although the text is illegible and the only remaining option left for the player is to exit the menu.

--Chickasaurus 18:15, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Beta Names revisited

[2] <- This seems to have the earlier beta names than what is included in the page. Keep in mind, though, that they all have a 7-character limit. It seems that they hadn't yet expanded the names. You can see a lot of the betas are similar, but there are quite a few that aren't listed. Some are impossible to make out, because they are only 7-characters... Exeggcute for example. Should this be considered and potentially added to the article? Mefredbob 21:42, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Cannot see. —darklordtrom 21:15, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

This works: [3] --Chickasaurus 19:35, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

That one doesn't work as well. --☆CoolPikachu! 19:48, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Odd, it did a while ago. Well the original thread it was posted on is here: [4] --Chickasaurus 23:27, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

I've uploaded the poster to the Archives. Soincfunt 15:23, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

190 pokemon were originally planned

since last year we know that originally there were 190 pokemon planned for Red and green, http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78267 , I think that's something important that should be noted at least in this article. Gwonam 17:50, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Pokémon Red, Green, and Blue beta.

I think that we should move it to this title. We definately need to make a decision, because we can't just leave that tag there forever. I believe that we should move it, as there are parts of this article that only encompass Red and Green, while other parts include information on the international Red and Blue. Samjohn95 17:05, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Female character

Is there any evidence of a playable female character besides that picture? Because that picture could be anything... how is anyone to know that the girl in that picture was originally planned to be a playable female character? It just looks to me like a pointless illustration, not as some concept that was ever intended to be included in the game.

From a programming standpoint, I have no idea why such a concept would be thrown out. All it would take would be one extra boolean variable, 2 extra sets of sprites (one for the girl and the other for the girl on a bike), and 2 battle sprites (her back view and her as the opponent). It's nothing the game wouldn't have been able to handle, seeing as there's so much extra stuff in Pokémon Yellow Version that obviously takes up more space than a playable female character would. The only reason to not include something like that would be due to complete laziness in not wanting to draw an extra few sprites. Dannyjenn 20:53, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

If it was that easy we probably would have gotten the girl female player in GS rather than in Crystal, since Kris would likely have been designed by then. It's true that the girl in that artwork might not have been meant to be a female PC, but since she's shown with the male PC and rival, I'm not sure what else she could have been. Why have art with two important characters and some random other person? That piece of art isn't the only one with her in it, either- there's a comic somewhere around here with those three characters. Not sure what happened to it, though. Yamiidenryuu 22:18, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

She didn't have to be another playable character though... perhaps she was intended to be a second rival (like how it is in Black / White). And it's always possible that she may not have been important at all... unimportant characters have been used in the anime before. For example, there were two other trainers from Pallet that served no purpose other than to take the other starter Pokémon, ensuring that Ash started off with Pikachu. Also, in the introduction there's some Lass included who isn't important, even though all the other people shown are main characters.

And I think that programming her would be "that easy"... which is kind of my point. I think that the reason that the girl isn't available in Red / Green / Blue / Yellow / Gold / Silver is because they didn't even come up with the idea until Crystal, which I think makes a lot more sense than saying that it was because it was too hard to progam (which I know it wasn't), that there wasn't enough space on the cartidge (which I know that there was), or just that the developers were to lazy to do so (which is unlikely). Dannyjenn 00:39, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Yeah. I don't think there is any real evidence to show that she was supposed to be a playable character. There might be evidence in some Japanese interviews, or we could try asking Ken Sugimori himself via Twitter... I think that we should probably change it to say something like "unknown female character". Some could speculate this character to be an early version of May (she also appeared in some promotional artwork for the game) but there's no evidence to support that as far as I'm aware.

I think she probably had at least some significance, given how Green and Leaf's (who did become a playable character) designs are based on her. The female character appears again in a sketch from a page from one of Game Freak's books called Satoshi Tajiri: A Man Who Created Pokémon. Unfortunately, I don't own the book and don't know if it says anything significant about her. A similar character appears in a book on how to make Pokémon origami, but the manga sections are illustrated by Emiko Yoshino, not Ken Sugimori. (according to Bluesun (talk • contribs)). --Chickasaurus 20:48, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Beta names

Does anyone know why the beta names on the poster are at most 7 characters long, while the ones on the list don't seem to have that limit? Where does the information on that list come from anyway... from the looks of things, one of three things happened.

- The names on the list came first... then a 7 character limit was decided on, and so the names were all shortened (as seen on the poster)

- The names on the poster came first (with an assumed 7 character limit) and then when the limit was raised to 10 the names were changed to the ones on the list

- That third poster isn't "official" and used some weird abbreviated form of their names for some reason

With the exception of that last possibility, it appears that there was once going to be a 7 character limit on Pokémon names, which I think is notable. I also find it interesting that the limit is 7... which is the exact same limit as the character limit on the player's name. Although this could just be coincedence... maybe the name is limited to 7 characters because the word "Pokédex" is 7 characters long and fits nicely in the Start menu. Dannyjenn 03:52, 19 March 2012 (UTC)