Talk:Guardian deities

Moving the page

Should we move the page to Tapu or Tapus, since that is still an official name for them and more people seem to be using it than guardian deities, as well as making the name of the page defiantly exclude any other Pokemon which are worshipped as protectors that may appear in the future? PartHunter (talk) 02:34, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Guardian deities is their official name, as seen on the official website. --HoennMaster 03:10, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

If other Pokemon are called guardian deities in the future, they would almost certainly deserve to be mentioned alongside the tapu. Besides which, so far, the "tapu" are almost always called guardian deities, so that should be the most appropriate name. We don't need to invent a worry about future "guardian deities" to justify moving them. If it's expanded later, we can decide if we want to make a page dedicated to the tapu then. Tiddlywinks (talk) 03:55, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

To revisit this discussion: the term used in dialogue in-game seems to be more often than not "tapu." In light of how the actual game depicts them, what's the new consensus? What does everyone think we should do? Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 17:21, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm against moving this unless Tiddlywinks' prediction comes true. They are still called "guardian deities" even in-game. In fact I tdon't think I've even seen them referred to generically as "Tapu". I don't even give a Schif (Talk • Contribs) 17:23, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

The Tapunium Z's description calls them the tapu, not the guardian deities. That's the main source that I think we should consider. Additionally, I think "guardian deity" is more Alola-specific terminology, whereas tapu is a term more applicable to the Pokémon world as a whole; they seem to be revered as guardian deities in Alola, but I doubt that holds in the rest of the Pokémon world (although that is a bit speculative). --SnorlaxMonster 17:40, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

To Schiffy: Look here, Acerola uses tapu. I agree this page should be moved. Tapu is the most used terminology both in-game and the fandom. This group of Pokémon is called guardian deities, land spirits (see map description for Ruins of Conflict/Life/Abundance/Hope), and spirit guardians (in the anime). All of these are official and they can be referenced in the article, but for the title we should go with the one that's used the most rather than favoring one that's used here and there. --Mikuri 11:02, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

I see no reason that we should have it at Guardian Deities rather than Tapu... Both are official terms, used in game and referenced by official media, and one of those terms is used commonly by the Pokémon community. It seems a little ridiculous that we are choosing the less used term (Guardian deities) over the more common yet equally official term (tapus). --Celadonkey 21:08, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

I honestly think "Tapu" suits the page name well. It's in their names, and they are referred to as such in the games. Crummymummy (talk) 20:01, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

I don't agree with him, but here's what Tiddlywinks had to say:

"My opinion is that "tapu" is fairly informal. Guardian deity is an explicit description of their role and better IMO."

--Celadonkey 00:28, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Not a mod, but I definitely agree that the page should be renamed to Tapu. As a name, "guardian deities" is awfully vague. It could, for example, refer to Celebi, who is found within a shrine and is noted to be the guardian of the forest. "Tapu" obviously refers specifically to the guardian deities themselves. And well, they are probably named "Tapu X" because they are the tapus. Calling them "tapus" as a whole just makes sense.GM_3826 (talk) 21:21, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Other groups can easily be as/more vague than "guardian deities". ("Legendary birds" would be a huge one.) Tiddlywinks (talk) 22:26, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

I would like to reiterate that in-game dialogue overwhelmingly uses tapu more often than any other term for the group. I don't think that should be discounted lightly. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 06:49, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Sure, some official terms are that vague... but I don't see why we should favor a vague term over one that is both official and clearly refers to a certain group of Pokémon.GM_3826 (talk) 19:26, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

I didn't say anything about your other/overall arguments. I was only speaking to the one. The point is: vagueness does not hold up as a thing to count against a group's name. Tiddlywinks (talk) 20:01, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

...To contradict myself, though, as far as I'm concerned, "tapu" is vague. "tapu" has no meaning to anyone who doesn't already know exactly who they are. "Guardian deities", by contrast, is very understandable to anyone new to the lore. Tiddlywinks (talk) 20:08, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

No, because it's still not clear as to what guardian deities you're talking about. Again, this series has MULTIPLE guardian deities. If a fan, based on this website, were to talk to a fan who didn't use this website but was familiar with this series, then it would be clear as to what they meant when they say "tapu", but not when they say "guardian deity". Also, in order to find this page, they would have to generally be looking for it... in which case, even more reason to use the more common name, since they would likely be familiar with the name (Tapu) but not what the Pokemon actually are, or otherwise they would like to know more.GM_3826 (talk) 19:43, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

I don't particularly agree with your first point - I can't really think of any other Pokémon that are specifically guardian deities - but your last point is imo the best one brought up. I occasionally refer to "guardian deities" irl and none of my Pokémon loving friends know what I'm talking about, and I feel like I wouldn't know what they are either if not for Bulbapedia. Tapu is what I'd search online if I was looking for info on these guys. --Celadonkey 22:07, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

That "last" point, suggesting that, "in order to find this page", tapu would be better is incredibly false. How are you looking for that page? If you're searching the wiki... Go ahead and try searching "tapu" right now, and tell me if you can't find this page. If you're looking for links... It's trivially as easy to link "tapu" as "guardian deity" if so desired; depending on the circumstances, either may be warranted. It's a non-issue. Tiddlywinks (talk) 22:34, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

I wasn't talking about Bulbapedia... I was talking about online in general. Simply searching "tapu" online shows no reports for the Guardian Deities page. Searching "tapu group" doesn't work at all. To find it on Google, you pretty much need to know what's on the Bulbapedia page! And that makes it really difficult and confusing for Pokemon fans who are not a part of Bulbapedia. Both terms are vague in some way, as have been pointed out by various users, so the vagueness shouldn't matter. What really matters is accessibility - and using the term "guardian deities" isn't accessible at all. --Celadonkey 23:32, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

If people want to find something on Bulbapedia, they'll generally search Bulbapedia. If someone doesn't know of Bulbapedia, I think I'd be a little surprised if "tapu" was the first thing someone would search that could/would lead them here.

Now, it's very possible that other people's results will be relatively different (and if that's so, that kind of minimizes this whole issue anyway...), but when I search very simply pokemon tapu, Bulbapedia/Tapu Koko is my first result. (And for what it's worth, the first few pages have only a handful--if that--of pages that use just "tapu" in the title, with most getting hits for "Tapu Koko"/etc. So if 'competition' is the worry, it seems like a small one anyway.) If I'm halfway smart, I know very well that Tapu Koko is a "tapu", so I can easily go to its page and look for something like "Tapu Koko is one of the tapu"... And I should very quickly see "It is the guardian deity of Melemele Island." Which, OK, maybe that's not obvious. Good news: we can fix that. We could take a simple cue from Regirock or Zapdos and name drop the other three Pokemon to make it clear that "guardian deity" refers to all of them.

So no, you don't "need" to know the term "guardian deity" already. You just have to be reasonable. Tiddlywinks (talk) 00:16, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, that makes sense.

I still maintain that the page should be used, though, you said it yourself that the fact that a term is "vague" doesn't mean anything, and "tapu" is not only used in-game more frequently ("guardian deities" is used 12 times and "tapu" is used 30 times, disregarding instances used within a Pokemon name and duplicate mentions of Tapu Village) but it is used more frequently by members of the fandom, making it the more prevalent term. --Celadonkey 00:40, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

(resetting indent)I have to support Celadonkey here; I feel like Tapu is a better name for the page than Guardian deity is, but any argument I could give is one that's already been stated in this comment chain, so I'll just provide another vote for moving it, even though it's not done by vote. And to answer the non-question above about other guardian deities, celebi comes to mind; it's explicitly called the guardian of the forest multiple times.

However, if the site admins' decision is to leave it where it is, then I'll go along with that. I likely won't agree with it, but in the end, it's a minor concern. --Felthry (talk) 01:02, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Oh yeah, forgot about Celebi! And IIRC some media called Lugia the "guardian deity of the sea" and Ho-oh the "guardian of the sky". --Celadonkey 01:08, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

As well, Azelf, Uxie, and Mesprit are called the "lake guardians" even here. So yes, we do have pre-existing guardian deities that are very explicitly guardian deities; the issue isn't that the term is vague so much as broad. If we really want to use a term that incorporates "guardian", I'd suggest "Island guardians", since at best that could also refer to Cresselia and Darkrai (and I'm certain that nobody thinks of them as guardians of their rather obscure islands more than as representatives of the moon) but if it's an official term we need, then "Tapu" is better because it refers to them and only them, as well as being a far more popular term that people less aggressively invested in the lore of the series are likely to be more familiar with. Eskay64 (talk) 20:54, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Island guardians isn't an official term, but Guardian Deities is.

However, I don't think vagueness or broadness is the issue here. Tiddly said it himself that "vagueness does not hold up as a thing to count against a group's name". "Tapu" is used far more ingame, even not including duplicate uses of terms like "Tapu Village" or "Nest of the tubby tapu", and it is used way more in the fan community. --Celadonkey 21:24, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

As noted on the page, "island guardians" is one of several official terms. We don't really have any reason to favor that particular term over the others, however. --SnorlaxMonster 10:01, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

I definitely don't think that "Guardian deities" is wrong; it's just as correct as "tapu". But that's the thing - I feel like the only reason it's stayed at Guardian deities is because that's how it was made. The term "tapu" is just as correct and it's used much more both in game and in the fan community. Most of the reasons against us moving it is a counter argument to the whole "what if future guardian deities?" argument, which is a bad argument in the first place and we should not focus on it. We should use a term that is official and widely used both in canon and in the fan community, than a term that is just as official but used less in both. --Celadonkey 13:26, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Tapu doesn't sound right--Jasper ^(Chat) 02:44, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Legendary Pokémon

Should we add them and Ultra Beast to Legendary pages while still having these pagse for operate information?--Jacob Kogan (talk) 21:32, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

We're currently discussing that on Talk:Legendary Pokémon. Feel free to participate there, but let's try to keep the discussion conslidated ^.^ Nutter Butter (talk) 21:34, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

GTS treats the Tapus as Legendaries.

"Do you want to include people who are seeking Mythical or Legendary Pokemon?"

Select "Don't include"

Tapu Bulu request disappears from selection. TehPerson (talk) 09:20, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

As has been clearly stated multiple times in the discussion linked directly above, the GTS treats them only as Legendary or Mythical, nothing more specific than that, so we won't be identifying them as one or the other until we get clear canonical confirmation of which of those they are. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 17:01, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

Wait, so the discussion isn't about whether they are legendary or not, but whether they are legendary or mythical? I thought we already could tell they're not mythical, mythical Pokémon are event exclusive Pokémon. --Celadonkey 14:11, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

That being said, we should wait until more evidence to decide whether they are legendary or not. --Celadonkey 14:16, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Deoxys was called Mythical in ORAS. We will wait, therefore, for a specific desgination. Tiddlywinks (talk) 14:38, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

It was? Huh, I always thought that the official designation changed, with that poll and all. --Celadonkey 15:01, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

So, since we know that they are either Legendary or Mythical, should we add them to Template:Legendary Pokémon? --Celadonkey 16:45, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

At this point, we should add them to a disputed category/template, if anything. --Super goku (talk) 07:01, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Guardian deities connection to the Cosmic Duo

So I benign thinking about this for a while now. Do you think the Guardian deities share a connection with Solgaleo and Lunala. I was wondering if these means they are apart of the group or connected towards them like Regigigas and Arceus for example. There serval hints to this

1. It was the Cosmic Duo that bestow upon them Tapunium Z after defeating them, giving them their own Z-Move 2. Tapu Koko recused Cosmog as seen in the games. 3. In the anime they can sense the birth of Cosmog and comes to pick it up for Ash to find and the fact they helped Nebby evoked into Solgaleo just like the Sun Flute and Moon Flute did in the games. 4. They defend and rescued a Solgaleo/Lunala form Necorzma one time as mentioned in page founded in the Acerola's Secret Library Book Side Quest. 5. The original Cosmic Duo as mentioned in all Gen 7 games protected the Cosmog, fitting to their guardians title.

I like to think these facts again put them as related or connected to the Cosmic Duo. So thoughts about this?--Jacob Kogan (talk) 18:16, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

They have more connections, sure. But they aren’t related outside of that. They're just two groups of Legendaries that happened to have interacted. That’s like saying that the Tapus are Ultra Beasts because they fought a few times. --Celadonkey 19:44, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

Talk pages are for suggesting improvements to the articles, not idle chit chat. If you want to speculate about these things, go to the forums.--ForceFire 03:35, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

I think Jacob was implying he wanted to add this to the article. Or at least that's how I interpreted it --Celadonkey 03:43, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

That is correct Celadonkey that is what I was going for in this discussion on the topic.--Jacob Kogan (talk) 03:45, 28 January 2018 (UTC)