Talk:HS11

hey, shouldn't you put that spike cannon and tackle shouldn't have worked on sableye because they're both normal-type attacks and sableye is part ghost,

i put it recently but it's already gone,,, - unsigned comment from Ja1207 (talk • contribs)

I also disagree with the removal. It was removed because it's "non-notable", we include stuff like this all the time. I was waiting for someone to agree with me that it belongs to the page, because edit wars is the last thing I wanna do. I hope more people are watching this page because there needs to be a real discussion about this. The more people that agree, the more likely it will be part of the article. TheBlazikenMaster 13:39, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I restored it and added link templates. It is an error - what else would the error section be for? --FabuVinny ^{|Talk Page|} 13:52, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Exactly, and it is a notable one too. Errors are things that don't make sense, tackle hitting a ghost doesn't make sense. You can't tackle a ghost. TheBlazikenMaster 13:54, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

The synopsis is more of a recap... It's supposed to be short and sweet, not descriptive of every single detail. TorchicBlaziken ^{(talk•edits)} 21:03, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Ending.

We need to add the ending thing in the dub differences section because the way it's conveyed between the versions is actually pretty different. Misty mentioning it was her "calling" implies that she is eagerly looking forward to enjoying her new position, while the Japanese version makes it sound as though she's only putting up with it because she has no other options. It's like in Movie 2 when Melody said "what's this?" regarding the prophecy tablet. Technically, what she said is the same, but the WAY she said it was different (the Japanese version said "what's this" in a recognition tone, while the dub had her ask it in a way that indicated it was completely unfamiliar), and last I checked, that made the pass for the dub differences section for M02. For the record, DBZ Fan verified with this from both Dephender and even Dogasu, so it's definitely verifiable and confirmation from people who have watched the series in Japanese. Weedle Mchairybug (talk) 18:23, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Misty did not say anything about her "calling" in the English dub. That's the narrator.

And IMO Misty doesn't at all sound like she's "putting up" with being a Gym Leader in the Japanese.

DBZ Fan (or Dogasu or Dephender) can come and discuss it here if s/he wants. On that note, are you taking these things second-hand (even via subtitles), or are you actually listening to (and preferably understanding) each yourself? Tiddlywinks (talk) 18:30, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Dephender and Dogasu has watched the Japanese episodes (and if I understand DBZ Fan correctly, they've actually watched it in the raw, meaning no subtitles and are listening and understanding them), and DBZ Fan also contacted them and made sure this was the case before claiming them. Weedle Mchairybug (talk) 19:08, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Right now I'm talking with you. I know what I'm talking about, and I want to know what you know directly; if you don't really know anything except second-hand, this can't be a real conversation.

If you want me to talk to Dephender/Dogasu/DBZ Fan, like I said, bring them here or something and I'll be happy to. Otherwise, I'm not going to take your interpretation of what they've said somewhere or other, which I can't really probe. Again: not a conversation. It's pointless to just throw out names. Tiddlywinks (talk) 19:43, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

I just asked for him to come over. And I think you might know DBZ Fan, he went by the name of Pokémon Fan 132 on Bulbagarden forums. Weedle Mchairybug (talk) 12:49, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Regarding ending in "A Date with Delcatty!" episode i can confirm how ending in Japanese version is significantly different than in dub given how i watched original version of episode in question(Dephender and Dogasu from bulbagarden forums as Weedle user already brought up can confirm as well how what Misty says in dub and original version at ending isn't same either). In dub Misty on dive board looks forward in continuing to run gym saying she will try best to become best gym leader she can be. In original Japanese version on other hand Misty is seeming absent minded being disappointed with her sisters incompetence over not having anyone to rely on in running cerulean gym.

Her exact words in ending were: "Well my sisters are of no use so ill have to stay here doing my best for time being. Right Togepi?" Giving out impression how she's not satisfied with her current situation.

Considering how Japanese version of pokemon episodes is authentic source and something coming from scripts from those who write for pokemon anime. Its the only true version honestly and as such difference between dub and original version of "A Date with Delcatty!" episode should be brought up in article. As well in summary of that episode.--Pokemon fan 132 (talk) 13:38, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, and besides, as I pointed out earlier, if Melody's line of "what's this" between the Japanese and English versions of M02 can be considered substantially different enough to warrant a mention on there, this most certainly can, and should, be noted (and the dub line in itself was the same as in the Japanese version, it was the delivery of the line that was different, as the dub has Melody being unfamiliar with the tablet, while the Japanese version made clear from her tone that she recognized it). Weedle Mchairybug (talk) 13:47, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

First thing I want to point out: as I said above, "Misty" did NOT "realize" that being a Gym Leader is her calling (as the most recent edit tried to re-add); the narrator said that.

You're not even focusing on the same lines. You say it's different because in English she says she will try to become the best Gym Leader she can be (her second line), while in Japanese, she's disappointed that she can't rely on her sisters (her first line). That's not a logical comparison. But hell, if I want, I can hear her first English line's delivery as being "sad" and "disappointed" like the Japanese supposedly is, instead of "looking forward". Half my point here is: half of the "difference" is subjective interpretation.

Let's break down the actual lines. English: "Well, being a Gym Leader may not be as glamorous as being an actress-model, but we like it." Japanese: "I can't rely on my sisters, so it's still up to me to do my best." The basic thrust of both is: my sisters have other things to do. Only the last part is any different, but her next line makes up the difference well enough. English: "And I'm going to keep on working to be the best Gym Leader I can be." Japanese: "I'm gonna become a lot stronger as a Gym Leader."

There's not significant differences here. Tiddlywinks (talk) 16:30, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Regarding Japanese version Misty still through dialogue confirmed at end of the episode how she perceives gym as job, rather than her career/dream. Which is very different from way how English dub portrayed her to be if we go by dialogue. Reactions may have been the same since were talking about animation, but exchange of character dialogue can display entirely different and inaccurate of what writers tried to convey on screen picture of what kind of message this episode was supposed to send t viewers.

Considering how unlike in English version where Misty is through dialogue giving out impression how she accustomed to gym leader life fully accepting it as her future. In original Japanese version Misty is actually not satisfied with her current situation letting viewers know how while she may have decided to remain at gym, motives behind it were not so much of genuine desire that this becomes her long term profession. But more so result of unfavorable circumstances, lack of someone to rely on and necessity implying desire/possibility that she may leave in future. Given how she said "I can't rely on my sisters, so it's still up to me to do my best".

Even last line signalize key differences between dub and original if we analyze choice and order of words. Because in Dub Misty is basically through statement "And I'm going to keep on working to be the best Gym Leader I can be" saying how she views gym as her "new career". Going in line of what narrator eventually did said.

But in Japanese version statement "I'm gonna become a lot stronger as a Gym Leader" is revealing how Misty views her current position as mean in possibly helping her come closer to achievement of ultimate goal itself(which was to become water master, E4 level of water trainer). Indicating how she decided to draw best she can out of her current position and lack of choice in what to do regarding doing management of Cerulean gym.

So it would be actually better and more accurate to revise summary of "A Date with Delcaty!" episode and bring up difference between Dub and Original version., Considering how differences, choice of words and dialogue are different enough just like whole shipping scene was to mislead viewer/reader in what was actual reason behind Misty decision to take over gym.--Pokemon fan 132 (talk) 20:05, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

You said: "Regarding Japanese version Misty still through dialogue confirmed at end of the episode how she perceives gym as job, rather than her career/dream." That's super subjective. The rest of your interpretation of her Japanese lines is super subjective as well. You can argue it, but it's hardly ABSOLUTE fact. Tiddlywinks (talk) 20:16, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

For the record, technically, Melody's delivery in the Japanese version of "What's this?" regarding the prophecy tablet compared to the English version is "super subjective" as well, yet Dogasu noted it was indeed very different between the English and Japanese versions, even if the words themselves were the same, and if that can be counted as a difference here, this most certainly can. Besides, as the movie Hitch put it, in communication, only 10% of communication involve the actual words, while 90% involve non-verbal communication (specifically, 60% from body language, and 30% from the tone of your voice). Weedle Mchairybug (talk) 21:12, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

I'm not interested in judging M02, I'm only interested in this episode. And based on this episode alone, I personally do not feel that there is a significant difference in the scene, either from the words, or tone, or whatever (it's not like "body language" is really worth a lot in most animation anyway).

If you want to remove/argue that difference in M02, feel free (not on this talk page). Tiddlywinks (talk) 21:23, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Whether it is subjective or not why is summary of this episode written based on what was said in dub rather than original Japanese version? Not just the ending but several other segments too like whole date proposal and how Misty reacted to it? More over since bulbapedia is known for providing only clear cut indisputable fact wouldn't it be than in its best interest to point out differences between dialogue of what Misty said in English and what in Japanese version? Because dialogue on dive board clearly is not the same with different words in end giving out different picture of what indeed writers who wrote scripts for this episode tried to tell?

--Pokemon fan 132 (talk) 21:36, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

To your last point: again, subjective.

I don't really deal with the anime much overall, but there's two things to consider. 1) Whoever wrote the summary probably watched the dub. Simple enough and understandable, since this is an English wiki. 2) I think the list of dub edits may suffice to clarify differences between the languages. (I think, at best, trying to describe all the differences in the summary would get messy.) Tiddlywinks (talk) 21:47, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Problem is its not subjective. Because ending in Japanese shows how reason behind Misty decision to stay at gym is on good part influenced by sisters irresponsibility. As she backs up with claim:"I can't rely on my sisters, so it's still up to me to do my best."

Something English dub altered and omitted out giving out impression how there weren't any external factors behind Misty taking over Cerulean gym. Despite in dub just like in Japanese at beginning of episode being disappointed over sisters avoiding to do anything at gym feeling like she has no one to count on. I realize this is English wiki but dub edits should be brought up, since in that case only authentic source of info to go by and what was writers message is original version,.

That's why i suggest as more objective and neutral solution to list under dub edits difference between dub and original version as far as Misty dialogue goes regarding Cerulean gym in ending, just like there should be listed difference in scene when Misty was proposed to go on date. Considering how just like with ending Misty wording and reactions are different in original compared to dub version.--Pokemon fan 132 (talk) 07:04, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Tell you what. I'm going to give you two chances. FIRST: if anyone responds here within the next 24 hours that they also think the difference in the end scene is too minor, I'm going to stick entirely by my opinion that the difference isn't important. If that doesn't happen, then (second): you can add the below as a Dub edit.

* At the end of the episode when Misty is sitting on the diving board, in the Japanese version, Misty originally mentions that she can't rely on her sisters, implying they're irresponsible. In the English version, she only mentions that they have their jobs as actress-models.

(Again: DO NOT add this now. Only if, 24 hours from now, no one else has said anything. And you can word it a little differently, but if I feel you're editorializing the "difference" too much, I'll either remove it again or just turn it back to this quote above.)

I really think this is a pretty minor difference, though, so *I* won't add it, and for all I know someone else may deign to remove it--in short, it's your second chance to be contradicted by another person. (Practically the only reason I'm doing this is because I don't entirely know our anime standards, so maybe it's fine; or maybe not.) I'm not saying you should edit war with anyone who decides to remove it because I've "approved" it; I'm just letting you have a final avenue to possibly have some of what you want.

The date scene difference you mention, I'm not sure what you mean. Tiddlywinks (talk) 13:13, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

The difference is almost non existent, both are stating similar things and does not change the context of the scene. Dialogue changes happens all the time in any dub, it's only notable if the context of the scene is vastly different, which in this case is not really any different.--ForceFire 14:48, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Actually, the difference is not "almost non-existent", it's actually pretty vast since it implies nearly the exact opposite reaction from each version. Misty makes clear in the Japanese version that she doesn't exactly like running the gym, but has to put up with it because her sisters were irresponsible and unreliable for it ("Well my sisters are of no use so I'll have to stay here doing my best for the time being. Right Togepi?"). The dub, however, makes it sound as though she actually enjoys Gym Leading ("Well, being a Gym Leader may not be as glamorous as being an actress-model, but we like it."), something that was never implied at all in the Japanese version, and if anything the Japanese version implied the exact opposite reaction to the job. Last I checked, that's a pretty stark difference, even more so than the bit regarding Melody's reaction to the tablet, which was at least exactly the same between the two versions in terms of words used, though not in the delivery. And the delivery of a dialogue is just as important as, if not even MORE important than the words of the dialogue themselves. Now, if it was something like the Japanese version saying "Well my sisters are of no use so I'll have to stay here doing my best for the time being, right Togepi?" and "well, my sisters are useless at the job, so until things change, I'll have to run the gym however long it takes, right Togepi?", THAT'S an almost non-existent difference, as what's being conveyed in the meaning at least IS the same overall, even if the wording is slightly different. Weedle Mchairybug (talk) 17:30, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

It's by no means "clear she doesn't exactly like running the gym". That's your assumption/interpretation. Tiddlywinks (talk) 17:42, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

If she did like running the gym, she wouldn't have said in the Japanese version "my sisters are of no use so I'll have to stay here doing my best for the time being," since no one who truly likes doing something would use that phraseology. Actually, if anything, she would have used the dub's line about her actually liking her job at the Gym. I'd know, because I've seen people who enjoy something so much they simply cannot dream of doing anything else. It's not even my interpretation at all. Maybe you should go out and meet people, or at least observe human behavior from afar. Besides, "for the time being" implies that she's hoping for a time where she doesn't have to do it anymore, not exactly something a person who truly loved their job would say. Weedle Mchairybug (talk) 23:03, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

There is no "for the time being" necessarily. ...This is the exact problem with someone who doesn't know the language trying to argue based on what other people have said. There's only so many times I can tell you I can reasonably hear her line and not think she's feeling frustrated or trapped or whatever you want to call it, and then you try to tell me I'm wrong based on your purely secondhand information. If you can't judge that yourself and really talk with me on equal footing (even if it may not change your mind), this just isn't a "conversation" worth having. Tiddlywinks (talk) 23:23, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Dogasu, Pokémon Fan 123, and others HAVE in fact verified that "for the time being" is in there (Pokémon Fan 123, as he pointed out above, had made clear he watched the Japanese raw and most likely translated it, and he also verified it with both Dogasu and Dephender, both of whom know Japanese and in fact, the former has an entire site dedicated to comparisons between the dub and original for Pokémon). And BTW, while admittedly extremely limited, I do in fact have some grasp on Japanese (heck, I even took Introduction to Japanese I back in College, though I dropped out of Introduction to Japanese II after I failed two tests despite studying). I'm definitely knowledgable enough to work with Hiragana and Katakana, at least. Weedle Mchairybug (talk) 23:36, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

How about you show me exactly where Dogasu has said anything in particular supporting your view of the last scene?

Likewise for Dephender.

And then show me where Pokemon Fan 123 supposedly talked to Dogasu and verified his interpretation with him. Likewise Dephender. Tiddlywinks (talk) 23:52, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

I can't, since it was in a PM from Pokémon Fan 123 to them. Only he and them would know what was said. However, you CAN ask Pokémon Fan 123, as he stated here that he did verify it with them. Weedle Mchairybug (talk) 01:07, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Then tell me how exactly you know they talked in a PM, if you please. Even before Pokemon Fan 132/DBZ Fan came in here, you were making this same claim, so I trust you have something you can link (or at the very least explain). Strictly speaking, Pokemon Fan 132 has not said here that he verified anything with Dogasu or Dephender, only that they can supposedly confirm what Misty says. Tiddlywinks (talk) 01:21, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

How exactly I know he talked to them about it? That's easy, because Pokémon Fan 123 pretty much stated it in many of his pro-Misty posts on both Bulbagarden (back when I was a member) and especially in Pokecommunity (the latter under the name DBZ Fan), usually when debating other members regarding Misty. In fact, I can even link you to one of these topics where he mentioned this (a topic he created, in fact): http://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=336960 Weedle Mchairybug (talk) 01:46, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

DBZ Fan doesn't appear to say anything in that thread about hearing anything from Dogasu or Dephender and the end of this episode. I don't want just any thread where he talked to one or the other about anything—it has to be about this episode, about the last scene!

So please try again. This time, I want you to find a quote that shows that Dogasu or Dephender told DBZ Fan anything about the end of this episode and paste it here, so that we can both be sure you're not linking another false lead. Tiddlywinks (talk) 02:04, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

That's going to be difficult, because I am currently suspended from Pokecommunity's anime forums, so I cannot access the forums where he said this (and for the record, I also tried accessing his old posts and topics, no dice either, even though the only posts that came up dated back to 2011). The only reason why I was even able to post that link was because I had favorited it earlier. Like I said, you should try asking Pokémon Fan 123, as he would know far better than I can. Weedle Mchairybug (talk) 02:34, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Then until it should be confirmed or denied, I don't consider it true. The next time you want to claim something like that, it'd be nice if you can be sure you can back it up. (And not just, for all I know, assuming he talked about it with them just because he has before.) Tiddlywinks (talk) 02:43, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Like I said, you want confirmation, you should ask Pokémon Fan 123, since he's the one who said it. Don't give the whole "guilty until proven innocent" card for this, especially not to me. You really want to find out whether it's true, you should try asking him. Heck, he's more than willing to answer it, not to mention more than capable. You could also ask Famon on Pokecommunity, he may enter rows with the guy regarding whether Misty truly did deserve her reputation among others, but he definitely can confirm that Pokémon Fan 123 mentioned this, because he told him that. In fact, had I been in your position, and I was told that someone knew if they couldn't give the evidence, I'd go by finding out from that someone else. In fact, Pokémon Fan 123 pretty much confirmed it when he said, and I quote, "(Dephender and Dogasu from bulbagarden forums as Weedle user already brought up can confirm as well how what Misty says in dub and original version at ending isn't same either)." Weedle Mchairybug (talk) 03:03, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

(resetting indent)I *know* Pokemon Fan 132 is the one who can clear this up. And I'm waiting for him. He's perfectly able to see this page without me (or you) specifically reaching out to him.

Also, I'm certainly not going to someone else entirely like "Famon", I absolutely don't have the patience to do your work for you. If you want to support your position, simply give me something definite. Don't send me off on some fetch quest. And if you had paid attention above, I already said: "Strictly speaking, Pokemon Fan 132 has not said here that he verified anything with Dogasu or Dephender, only that they can supposedly confirm what Misty says". I know VERY well what he said above. Like above, if he wants to clarify that, he's welcome to. ...Just give him some time to actually become available again and make his own response. Tiddlywinks (talk) 03:33, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

And believe me, if I actually had access to the anime forums on Pokecommunity, I'd be happy to go out of my way to fetch it for you myself. The only reason I'm not doing so is because I simply cannot access Pokecommunity's anime forums right now. Weedle Mchairybug (talk) 03:36, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Ok, I checked with Dephender once again what was authentic dialogue of what Misty said at dive board in Japanese. Answer is:"I can't rely on my sisters, so it's still up to me to do my best."

Which is slightly different from "Well my sisters are of no use, so ill have to stay here doing my best!"(bad translation). However context and core of message is basically same.

Through this unlike in dub Misty is not implying but directly confirming how due to sisters irresponsibility and out of necessity she made choice behind staying at gym for time being. I must point out how this isn't minor difference compared to dub which described Misty decision to stay at gym as nus product of her own desire to make name for herself. Because it emphasize on what was if not main, than one of main reasons behind Misty even deciding to take care of gym considering how much frustrated and unattractive she was to that idea when being forced to go back home at end of Johto.

Omitting this information from readers who watched dub and never had opportunity to discover what was told in original version of this episode would mean denying them from whole puzzle and all important parts to better grasp background behind Misty staying at Cerulean gym. Offering thanks to original version more in depth explanation. Therefore i strongly advise to include under dub edits this segment.

Just like i think whole dub edit of shipping scene where Misty in Japanese version refused going on date with Georgio due to "there being someone else" should be returned too.--Pokemon fan 132 (talk) 21:11, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

I feel that the article is fine as it stands. "She mulls over how her sisters are disinterested in running the gym, but she's determined to be the best Gym Leader she can be." This line is true in both the original and dub versions of the episode. We do not have to attempt to break down what her exact feelings on the situation are. There is realistically no way to notarize that difference without some aspect of subjectiveness and interpretation being present. While I'm sure that Dogasu and Dephender may have their own interpretations about the scenes, that's all they are-interpretations. Breaking down differences in tone and dialogue (outside of particularly special or impactful circumstances) really becomes a slippery slope and like it was stated above, makes things rather messy. I do not find this difference to be notable enough to make a dub edit out of it. --Pokemaster97 21:39, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

As far as the date scene, Misty did not turn down Georgio because "there was someone else". Misty said no such thing. (And if you want to discuss that, I'd appreciate if you started a new section rather than us continuing to inflate this one. =P ) Tiddlywinks (talk) 21:46, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

First of all, Pokemaster97, it is NOT the same thing between the two versions, not even similar. In the Japanese version, as Pokémon Fan 132 pointed out (and verified it with Dephender, I should add), she specifically stated she's only dealing with the Gym for the time being because of her sisters' being unreliable. The Dub, on the other hand, has her specifically saying that she likes being a Gym Leader even if it wasn't as glamorous as being a model (her exact words were, and I quote: "Well, being a Gym Leader may not be as glamorous as being an actress-model, but we like it."). That paints a completely different light towards what she said between the Japanese and the Dub. You want "sameness" regarding translation, at least similar enough, having one dub say "Well my sisters are of no use, so ill have to stay here doing my best!" and the other say "I can't rely on my sisters, so it's still up to me to do my best." matches sameness/extreme similarities perfectly.

Second of all, here's the problem with dismissing translations as "interpretations," Nietzsche had a statement of "there are no facts, there are only interpretations", which means nothing less than nothing truly matters since everything's relative. It's a nihilistic way of thinking, and my mom has taught me that words have meaning, a saying I will never let myself forget, not even with the breakdown of society right now via post-modernism. And besides, suppose you're right, suppose translations are ultimately meaningless since it's all interpretations and not truly factual in the end, we shouldn't even have a dub changes section anywhere on this wiki at all precisely BECAUSE it's all interpretations and meaningless rather than genuine fact (and don't give me exceptions: It's either we ALL have translations, or we have absolutely none whatsoever, no exceptions).

I don't care at all regarding what Misty's refusal of Georgio's date actually meant since I'm not a shipper, so it could be added in or kept off for all I care, with the only thing I have to say is that we only add it in if it's verified that there is differences there. Weedle Mchairybug (talk) 22:36, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

This is going nowhere fast. (And that's probably all there is to say any more on this.) Tiddlywinks (talk) 22:57, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Please don't use quotation marks unless you're repeating something I've actually said. I said the way the article currently presents the information is true to both versions of the episode because it presents that Misty thought about her sister's disinterest in running the Pokémon Gym. The bottom line is, we're not going to make a suggestion that Misty does not actually want to be the Gym Leader based on that one line. It's not explicit, therefore it's speculation. I am open to considering the alternative that Tiddlywinks wrote a little further up. Other than that, it's not notable. --Pokemaster97 00:10, 29 September 2016 (UTC)