Talk:Pokémon Champion

Title defence

"It is assumed that the Champion must defend their title against challengers, although this is never explicitly stated."

What about when you fight Blue in R/B. They say he's the champion, then you have to fight him to become champion, you beat him and oh noes he is no longer the top-dog. That looks to me like a title defence. - Ferret 03:39, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As someone else noted in another article - the problem with that is FireRed and LeafGreen alone - where when you fight the Elite Four the second time (and in terms of the story - they recognize it's the second time, too) and Blue is the champion agian. - Zeta

That is a problem. But to me that would say that in the game, that it's possible to have more than one champion at the same time, no? Or maybe Game Freak just screwed up. Maybe the translators screwed up, does the original Japanese version share the same not-champion, now-chamption mixup? - Ferret 03:56, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What I don't understand is why, in the games, the main goals are: catch all Pokémon, and BECOME THE CHAMPION. Yet when you beat the Elite Four/Champion, you can go back and re-chalenge the Champion, even though the game says you are the Champ, and the Champion has the same speech and is called "Champion *blank*". It is a HUGE loophole in the games. Why not retire the old Champ or have them say that you are the Champ now in their pre-battle speech? GuyNamedSean 02:29, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Sometimes things that should happen don't, because it's a game. It's better if there's a always high-level opponent that you can challenge at any time. Because of that, they're not going to retire the game champ. But not changing the speech? Yeah, that's laziness. Apparently you're supposed to make the assumption that the game champion immediately sweeps the Elite Four again once you leave?--Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 04:13, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Obvious rename

Let's rename this to "Pokémon League Champion"; "Pokémon champion" sounds like it is describing someone who is a champion at something else, like contests or Battle Tower. In other words, Pokémon League Champion=moreo specifico. PH1RESTRIKE 02:11, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Oak

Didn't proffesser oak win the first pokemon league in the pokespe manga?- unsigned comment from Lunick v sonela (talk • contribs)

Sorry.Lunick v sonela 17:12, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Sprite

Should we have a section regarding the sprites of the Champions? ^ht 14^★ 23:23, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

That's on the article for the Champion trainer class. —darklordtrom 23:24, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Right... ^ht 14^★ 23:26, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

to merge

I vote for merging--Branfili 04:51, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Does anyone actually opose the merge? And if so why? These pages are about the same thing. --SnorlaxMonster 13:19, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

I also vote for merging, and that the Trainer Class page should be removed. The new page should be named "Pokémon Champion". 'Coz I dun see a "Boss (Trainer class)" page. The sprites in the Trainer class should be moved to the "In the games" section. -- Ruixiang95 13:19, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

OK then. Due to absolutely no objection on either talk page, and absolutely no clear reason to have the pages separate, I'm going to combine these pages like Gym Leader was. While the page will be here, it should really be at "Pokémon Champion"—I have checked the games and it is a proper noun. --SnorlaxMonster 08:01, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Red

Wasn't he explicitly stated as a champion? He took Blue out of his role and became champion for a period. Shouldn't he be stated, for the games? Lovely Rose 17:33, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

True, but he is already covered by "* The player of Pallet Town, New Bark Town, Littleroot Town, or Twinleaf Town (depending) - All games, once defeating the previous Champion". --SnorlaxMonster 10:04, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

N?

Isn't N technically the champion for a short time? He beat Alder, and then is defeated by the player. Sennen Goroshi 01:48, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Reviving since I just got to that point in the game, and yeah, Alder lost to N, so wouldn't he technically count as a Champion? Drake Clawfang 17:32, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Well not nessciarily (sorry for the spelling ) but the battle they had wasn't an "official" battle because he would have to beat the elite four and be "eligible" (get 8 or more badges) to even get a chance at the title.--Glalie Power (talk) 23:51, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Picture?

I uploaded a picture of the six main series Champions' official art arranged to have them standing in a group. The revision of this page that included the picture was almost instantaneously undone and the uploaded file was subsequently deleted (due to not being currently in use on any page). So, tempted though I am, before I take matters back into my own hands: Would such a picture be a good addition to the page? Alderryeguy 01:21, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure. You should talk to somebody that is in charge of the archives. They would know why it was deleted. :--SuperAipom7 (Questions?) 01:42, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

I deleted it because of the following reasons:

1) Not a good job with the cropping.

2) It's a mix of the existing pictures in Archives.

3) We don't really need them mixed, if you want their picture, then just go to the article of said Champion.

4) The quality varies, I'm not sure it should be an option to do this now.

I (again) appreciate your concern, but I for one think we should let this one pass. Masatoshi_talk 04:18, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Anime Champions

Was it ever mentioned that winning the Pokémon League makes you that region's Champion in the anime? Tobias and Cynthia seem to be extremely different cases. In fact, I would think that winning the league would allow access to the Champion League, which as far as I understand it, is an invite-only tournament for Elite Four members, the regional Champion, and probably "Sinnoh League Victors" to compete in. That is speculation, but so is assuming that winning the league automatically makes them the Champion. --SnorlaxMonster 11:14, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

No from what I remember in the anime Ash only got a cup when he won a League. It seems like a yearly event. Then next year another winner is crowned and given the cup. I dunno if they obtain the title of "Champion". Also the definition of "Champion" in the anime has not been explained well. All they keep saying is that they are the best trainer in the region yet. They don't seem to have any special role with the Pokemon League unlike the Gym Leaders (Cynthia is an example). Blueknightex 11:06, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Despite being over four years old, I would like to bump this section (given recent events in the anime), since it still has not been addressed. To my knowledge, the anime has never stated that winning a Pokémon League Conference makes you the Champion, yet we are still labeling pages as if it does. On the other hand, we have evidence that this is not the case (e.g. Flint challenging Cynthia for the title of Champion), so I really don't see why we continue to assume this is the case. The way the conference winner and regional Champion are portrayed is completely different. --SnorlaxMonster 12:12, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

All champions' music remixed.

It says that Blue's Champion music was remixed for B/W (and it was) for the battle with the "top trainer" of the Battle Subway. My problem with this is: define "top trainer." Pokered4000 03:07, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

VS Banners

I believe this page should use the VS Banner sprites for the pictures. I have a few reasons. One, they were used when the Champions were on the Elite Four page, and two, this will make them match the Gym Leaders, Elite Four, and Frontier Brains pages. (Also, I know that Steven and Wallace don't have VS Banners, but hopefully they will eventually.) Also on a somewhat related note, the Champion page should be added to The Pokemon League box that has links to all the main articles about the Gym Leaders, Elite Four, etc. I was not sure where to post that so I put it here. So if someone that can would be so kind as to do those things, I would really appreciate it. If you have any reasons as to why it shouldn't be done also I'd be interested to hear them. CoolDudeAl (talk) 20:11, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Pokémon Champions in Adventures

Shouldn't Cynthia and Alder be included? In Different Dimensions Battle I Cynthia's grandmother scolds her for thinking that becoming a Champion means one doesn't need to train anymore. And Alder is the reigning Champion (at least according to Black). Ariano (talk) 19:40, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Is Red a Champion?

"In Black and White, Cynthia tells the player that once every few years, the Champions from all the regions come together and battle to find the strongest among them. In the Pokémon World Tournament in Black 2 and White 2, which takes place 2 years later, all the Champions the player battles in previous games participate in the tournament, as well as Red."

This contradicts the table below, as this part of the sentence implies Red is not a Champion. The table has Red included, even though it implies he is not in that sentence. --Abcboy (talk) 03:18, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Something from a random NPC inside of a house in Viridian City from HGSS:

You go all over the place and battle all kinds of Trainers. This is not just to train your Pokémon. This is also a chance too experience many things yourself. I bet the Champion from Pallet Town went to all the cities and towns in Kanto.

He's clearly talking about Red, since in the remake they don't keep things about Red secret like in the original GSC, and just the fact that he's in the Champions Tournament of the World Tournament should tell you even more that he is a Champion. Lamarfll (talk) 02:09, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Red as Champion

I think we can all establish the fact that there is canon evidence to support Red being Champion (eg. HG/SS reference, actual Champion title given, he can be fought, etc.). However, the only problem I have with this piece of information as it is would be the location. Red shouldn't be under Indigo Plateau, rather it should be Mt. Silver because he is not fought in Indigo Plateau itself. He shouldn't be categorized with Blue and Lance. Zorocario (talk) 03:23, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

To put something on top, "The player has always met the Champion before challenging the Elite Four"? I don't remember seeing him in GSCHGSS before Mt. Silver. Shouldn't we correct that? TeudowEthan (talk) 08:20, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Red is not the Champion in GSC/HGSS. He was the Champion at one point, but now Lance holds that title. --SnorlaxMonster 09:19, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Name.

Blue refers to himself as "League Champ" in FRLG. Oddly enough, seconds later he refers to the player as "Pokémon League Champion". Marked +-+-+ (talk) 20:40, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

N as Champion?

Just out of curiosity, would N be canonically considered a Champion? He DOES beat Alder himself in Black and White, and you do have to fight him as (one of) the final boss after beating the Elite Four. I think he would fall under the same category as Blue, being a Champion only temporarily, and like Red, not listed as a Champion when fought. These are just my thoughts, but I'd like to know what you guys think. Zorocario (talk) 19:09, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Quote from N just after he defeated Alder:

"It's over! Never again will Pokémon be made to suffer or be held captive by humans. It's all thanks to my friend, Zekrom/Reshiram! You may have the title of Champion… But you can't stop me with just a title. Your soft heart has left you weak. Years ago, you lost your Pokémon, your partner, to sickness. In order to forget the pain in your heart, you wandered Unova… Who knows how long it's been since you've had to fight with your full strength? I actually kind of like that about you, though. As a Trainer who far outmatches the Champion, I shall issue an order across Unova: Trainers of the world, free your Pokémon!"'

This seems to indicate that while he defeated Alder, he chose not to be Champion. --SnorlaxMonster 03:49, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, but you can't choose to be champion. I think the champion is the strongest trainer in the region, or in the case of Indigo, regions. Basically, the champion is whoever defeats the last champion. I think while Alder had the legal title of Champion, but N was the true champion- he just didin't formalize it. I think it's sorta like how Lance is Champion in G/S/C/HG/SS, but Red is obviously stronger and was known to have beaten Lance a few years before. Maybe we should just include both of them. uNsUsPeCtInG fOoL (talk) 18:38, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't think we should add him unless something explicitly says he's considered a champion to be honest. --It's Funktastic~!_{話してください} 18:43, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

The Champion is not necessarily the strongest Trainer in the region, it's just the one who currently retains the title, who gets it through Pokémon League protocol. I don't believe N collected 8 Badges, so while he defeated the Elite Four, he wouldn't qualify to become Champion anyway (and he let Alder keep the title). --SnorlaxMonster 13:30, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

I know this isn't the newest thing ever, but I'd like to point out some things in favour of him being a storyline champion, like Red. I don't believe N would force his way through the Gates that check for badges, nor would he evade them. As you remember, he truly believed he was doing right, and he clearly didn't try and be a criminal, and I doubt he would enter the league without the badges. My second point being in the Super Music Collection for Pokemon Black and White, his battle theme is listed as "決戦", which translates to Decisive Battle. This title is only ever used by Champion Steven and N. Thoughts? ArtistKyurem (talk) 05:25, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

The "far outmatching the Champion" phrase seems pretty clear. It's never been stated you're not allowed to refuse the title anyway.

The name of the battle theme can be explained by the fact that the guy just summoned his Castle to attach to the Pokémon League, and that you're battling his Zekrom^B/Reshiram^W with your Reshiram^B/Zekrom^W, putting each others' beliefs on the line for the future of Unova.

So my thinking is:

Did he have all the Badges?

→ No: If you're thinking you're gonna save the world, then Badges can probably wait. It's very possible for him to have said 'look over there!', and then storming in.

→ Yes, did he know that makes you the Champion?

→ No: He's ignorant.

→ Yes: He refused it. (the currently accepted solution)

--Det ^talk 19:08, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Keep in mind that the entirety of N's Castle is past thee Badge Check Gates; N was raised on the other side of them, so going between the main region and his home would not be necessarily intentionally evading them. The entirety of Team Plasma, even those who followed Rood and N in B2W2 and actually loved Pokémon, was past the Badge Check Gates, so I don't think it is appropriate to think about the members evading the gates as much as just having their base of operations past them. --SnorlaxMonster 09:24, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Well, it was and it wasn't. I think you're overlooking the fact that the Castle dug out from behind what was the Pokémon League, and let's stress that: it was underground. So this doesn't necessarily mean the entirety of Team Plasma were some mole men digging into the surface, climbing past the back wall of the Pokémon League, negligently passing Alder, the guards and the difficult terrained Victory Road on their evil missions to do evil deeds to good people.

If the whole Castle can levitate that easily, I'm betting it has some kind of highly advanced, energy-efficient undetectable excavation system as well. Perhaps based on perpetual motion, as breaking the laws of physics seems big deal. --Det ^talk 00:50, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

I definitely think N is a Champion like Blue, AKA a temporary Champion. He should also be listed.--BlackButterfree (talk) 00:57, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Are you mocking his intelligence, too? --Det ^talk 18:01, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Whose intelligence am I mocking? O.o N beat the current Champion, and even if he denounced the title, it's still his. Then the player beats him and then beats Adler. --BlackButterfree (talk) 18:43, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Like I said, he either didn't have all the badges to qualify for the title, or if he did, the phrase "As a Trainer who far outmatches the Champion" either means he's ignorant enough not to know that or he refused the title (e.g. being against the whole ideology).

So basically, only if he was ignorant, would he had been the temporary Champion. --Det ^talk 23:27, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

N is not a Champion because he did not take the helm of the Champion, like Blue did.--Force Fire 02:50, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

If Red is considered a champion, shouldn't all protagonists be considered champions as well?

After you beat the champion in any game technically you are the new champion. So, shouldn't the other protagonists be put on the list of champions?

I can't really think of a reason why Red is the only one there except you can actually met him in game unlike other protagonists. Still, that shouldn't exclude other character from the list.

I think Red should be put in another list. A "non-active champion" section, since Red never actually plays the role of the champion in any of the games (unless you count the Pokemon World Tournament which I don't because a champion's main role is to be the final challenger in the Pokemon League and the PWT isn't a part of that).

Coolcatkim22 (talk) 15:01, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

My memory is a bit fuzzy on this, but wasn't Red mentioned to be a former Champion in GSC/HGSS?--Force Fire 01:03, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

I am fairly sure Blue implies Red overtook his position or something along the lines when you met him on the Cinnabar Island (or what left of it). Eridanus (talk) 06:50, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Pseudo Legendary Pokemon

We should place something in the trivia about how each champion with the exception of red wallace and Alder own pseudo legendary pokemon--Just a simple edit (talk) 15:37, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Three exceptions out of nine means that that trivia is hardly notable. —Andy^P_K^M_N (talk) 15:51, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Iris and Diantha

Since Iris is the champion in Black 2 and White 2, the Opelucid Gym Leader in White, and is expected to run the gym in the anime, should it be stated that Iris is the first Champion Ash battled? Or does that bit of information go to Diantha? I think I left something about this on Diantha's page, but I can't remember, and this topic has my curiosity piqued. WATER Warrior67 18:50, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Iris is not a Pokémon Champion in the anime, so you can't say Ash was battling a Champion when battling her. And Diantha wasn't the first Champion Ash went up against, Alder was.--Mi ku ri 00:05, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Alder

How do we know that Alder specializes in Bug types? WATER Warrior67 16:23, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Trivia

While it's true that all champions are met by the player before the Pokemon League challenge. Isn't it a moot point that Blue isn't a Champion until then?--Benayla (talk) 17:34, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Name + opening line

How come the page's name is "Pokémon Champion" but the opening line talks about the "Pokémon League Champion" and say that it's often shortened to "Pokémon Champion"? It doesn't seem to make sense that the page's name is the shortened one, does it? MannedTooth (Talk) 05:53, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Pokémon League Champion is what it's officially called, but people are more likely to search for Pokémon Champion instead.--Force Fire 06:00, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Why not just move it to Champion, then? That's also listed as a common shortening, and it seems to me like that would be even more likely for people to search. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 06:02, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Well, there is a redirect for the word Champion. I never quite understood why we don't use the official name but rather the commonly known name if redirects exist, take for example Professor Oak, instead of being called "Samuel.........Oak", the page's name is Professor Oak, why not use the official and let redirects do their job ? :o MannedTooth (Talk) 06:20, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Champion might be too broad of a title. Master is a disambiguation page, rather than have Pokémon Master being just Master, so it's probably the same case here.--Force Fire 06:33, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

At risk of bringing up a dead conversation (talk page necromancy!), I think it seems reasonable to move to "Pokémon League Champion" with redirects from "Pokémon Champion" and "Champion". The latter may be a disambiguation, though, since as you mentioned it's a rather broad term. --Felthry (talk) 01:17, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

I think it shouldn't be moved there. I guess it makes sense to have articles at what they're commonly referred to, even if it's not the most official title. (For example, I vastly favor "Prince William, Duke of Cambridge" over "William Arthur Philip Louis, Duke of Cambridge, Earl of Strathearn, and Baron Carrickfergus".) However, I think "Champion" might be the most appropriate title (it's the Trainer class), and in contast to "Master", I can see no issues that would arise. (But it's also fine where it is now, I don't care too much.) Nescientist (talk) 14:03, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Hoenn Elite 4

In PS251, the Elite Four are said to be the winners of past tournaments, meaning they were Champions. When Wallace wins the tournament, Steven, a confirmed champion, was going to be moved to the Elite Four. Iml908 (talk) 17:56, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

In round 251, it also said the front rank of several from previous tournaments are selected as the elite 4 (Japanese 上位入賞者). So they are also probably a second place, third place, etc. E9310103838 (talk) 16:35, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Alola Champion

Why is Prof. Kukui is not inserted as the Champion of Alola League? Rockapheller (talk) 22:38, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Because he's not the champion; he just organized the Pokémon League and made himself the final challenger for the first champion (you). —Minimiscience (talk) 22:50, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

"Only half of Alder's party is made up of Bug-type Pokémon"

Why is this a revert reason? Only half of Steven's party is Steel and half of Lance and Iris' parties are Dragon. Lmoamemesxd (talk) 01:47, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, I have to wonder why Steven is considered a Steel type specialist. In most instances Steven has as much as or more of Rock types as Steel types. --celadonk (talk) 01:50, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

Steven is referred in-game, several times, as being a Steel-type specialist. The same goes for Lance and Iris for the Dragon-type. However, unless I'm mistaken, Alder is never referred to as a Bug-type specialist. Suic (talk) 03:21, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

I was the one who reverted that edit, and, yeah, that's why I still consider those other Champions to specialise in their respective types. Neither Alder nor any other NPCs ever state that he has a preference for Bug types. However, this discussion does have me wondering: is it ever actually stated that Iris specialises in Dragon types in Black 2 and White 2? It's obvious that she does in White, and one would assume that she continues to do so in Black 2 and White 2, but only half of her party in those games is Dragon-type (although they are all draconic in appearance), and we know of at least one other character who's confirmed to have changed type specialisation at some point. ~ Dannyboy601 (talk) 18:05, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

island challenge champion

we know kahili is a former island challenge champion. while she is definitely not a formal pokemon league champion, should we still mention her somewhere in the article? -Pokeant (talk) 10:49, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Island challenge champion and Pokémon League Champion are really not similar titles. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 11:11, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Orange League title

The Champion title being applied to the Orange League is a dub addition as far as I can tell. While I know this wiki sticks to English terminology, it strikes me as a glaring omission that it isn't even mentioned that the Japanese dub uses different titles instead (namely "Head Leader" for Drake and "Honored Trainer" for the challengers who defeat him, like Ash). Coughdropit (talk) 07:23, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Drayton

Wasn't Drayton be said to be BB Champion before Kieran? Lord Godwin (talk) 22:03, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

This information is not anywhere on the wiki at the moment. Can you please elaborate? CyberDragonM (talk) 09:14, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Well it was said in Indigo Disc that Drayton was the strongest trainer until Kieran beatten him. Lord Godwin (talk) 09:43, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

In Alola, as I understand it, the player character was the first to beat the Elite Four and so was the first to have the chance at the Champion title. As the last of the BB Elite Four, Drayton would be considered “the strongest trainer” even if he was not a Champion. It would seem that Kieran, then, might have been the first to beat Drayton and therefore the first who could be the Champion. Does that seem like a possibility to you? CyberDragonM (talk) 10:34, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Ah, yes, Drayton! One of the BB League’s Elite Four, if I am not mistaken. I hear his grandfather is a Gym Leader in the Unova region... And Drayton was the reigning Champion of the BB League until Kieran dethroned him... A Trainer of uncommon talent indeed. [Geeta] I had gathered information using my own sources, of course... [Geeta] Lord Godwin (talk) 11:49, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Ok. Just making sure he was called Champion in game. Will wrangle the template now. CyberDragonM (talk) 11:50, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Awesome, thx! Honestly a 3rd Dragon Champion is boring. Imagine someone like Lacey being the prior Champion:-D Lord Godwin (talk) 11:51, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

BB Champion post-story

Does the player take up Kieran’s position as BB Champion after he resigns it at the end of the story? If not, who does? This should probably be on this page. CyberDragonM (talk) 08:35, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

I believe it's the player since Kieran resigns and I think some dialog says outside the Champion the order does not change and Crispin does not have to leave. Though making Drayton or better Lacey Champion and adding Carmine on the 5th rank would be fun:-) Lord Godwin (talk) 08:37, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! Added the still abnormal interaction there. CyberDragonM (talk) 09:50, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

… Apparently Kieran resigned his position within the Elite Four, therefore allowing Crispin, who he would have replaced, to keep the position. Please try to be more clear in the future, as I could not fully understand you in this and the previous conversation. CyberDragonM (talk) 11:06, 18 December 2023 (UTC)