Talk:Pokémon League (Hoenn)

I think that we should change the subdivision order of this page. The page is currently divided by geography first and then by game, but I believe that the subdivisions on a page like the "Indigo Plateau" page would be better. That is, dividing by game first and then battles. The Indigo Plateau page works far better because most people are playing or looking at one game at a time, so scrolling through all sections for one E4 run is very tedious. Does anybody have any objections to the changing of the order? I will change it in a few days if I get no counters. Thank you for any and all feedback. Cinder24 (talk) 22:19, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

If I'm understanding your suggestion right, you'd like to move all the battles from the "Geography" section to their own separate section? That makes sense to me. If I want to read about the layout of the league, I'm probably not interested in everyone's Pokémon teams, and if I want to know what Pokémon everyone uses so I can prepare my team, I don't really care about the layout of every room. Storm Aurora (talk) 01:08, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Ok I have completed the change, and while Bulbapedia is being slow in letting me fix an issue with the subheadings of the Geography section, the "Elite Four and Champion" section is complete. As I mentioned in my editing note, if anybody has an issue with this change, please start a dialogue on this talk page instead of reverting the change without explanation. I do personally believe that this arrangement is better for anybody doing a wiki-assisted run through the Hoenn League, whether it is for a first playthrough or a nuzlocke, but I am open to hear any reasoning as to why the original arrangement was better (though honestly, I can't think of any reason). I will submit the subheading correction as soon as Bulbapedia gets the connection speed again, and I will fix any other issues if I see any. Thank you for your input, Storm Aurora. Cinder24 (talk) 02:36, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Did some cleanup, though I personally preferred the old style and would prefer to see it being restored. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 08:03, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

The Indigo Plateau article is structured the way it is because there's simply too many party templates to fit into one page. That issue does not apply to this article. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 08:05, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Is there any particular reason you prefer the old format? I understand that that is the reason why the Indigo Plateau is structured that way, but honestly that same problem applied to this article. If there is a reason why the old way would be better for information access, I am all ears. Additionally, I'm sorry to have done it, but I undid those revisions. That was a purposeful decision on my part to remove the headers from this article, as the contents tab was massively clogged with 20 unnecessary links, taking up an entire screen of scrolling. Since the trainers are just a handful of lines apart, I think anybody needing to navigate this page can more than easily reach the trainer they need by clicking the game they need. If you disagree with this still though, we can definitely get a moderator to make a ruling. Or if you have a reason to either revert to the old style or keep the links, please post it in this talk page and we can try to come to an agreement. Cinder24 (talk) 03:25, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

I misunderstood what you said about the structure of the Indigo Plateau page, but I do not believe it is structured that way for that reason. It is because most people are playing one game at a time, and going through the E4 while having to scroll through every game between every fight is extremely inconvenient. If it was simply to allocate templates, then there would be links to each E4 member and champion, not to individual games. However that would be even more unwieldy when completing a run since that would require 5 different pages. The structuring of the Indigo Plateau page was chosen to make it easier to navigate through the E4 with the wiki alongside, and I believe that this restructuring makes it far easier to do this with Hoenn games now too. But again, if you do have any reasoning that counters mine, I am open to starting a dialogue.Cinder24 (talk) 03:36, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

My belief is that the way Indigo Plateau was restructured was specifically because it had too many Trainer templates, and they required subpages. Also, please do not revert big edits without consulting others first. The header list has the option to be hidden, and there were other things I cleaned up as well, such as unnecessary empty rows. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 07:33, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry about the reversion, but I had originally posted the big edit with all of the trainer names as subheadings, so as I saw it, your edit was actually a reversion of mine. I had also left the empty rows because of the text change, but that isn't necessary now and I'll just leave the headers as they are. I actually reached out to Storm Aurora a little while ago to weigh in on this, and hopefully we'll just have an admin decision to put this to rest, because I think at this point we don't really have any recourse other than to respectfully disagree. If administration agrees with the links being left on the contents though, I'll respectfully put this issue to rest. I just want to make this page as easy to use as possible since I have been getting into Hoenn Nuzlockes a lot recently. But again, until a moderator weighs in, I'll leave the page as is. My main goal was to group the article by game anyway, and that massive improvement is already more than satisfactory for me. Cinder24 (talk) 07:49, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Side note: Even if the Indigo Plateau was originally structured due to template constraints, I'd still argue that it ended up with a better format anyway because it is massively easier to use than how the Hoenn page used to be. My point is that the way the Indigo page is structured is simply better for gaming purposes, so even if it wasn't made that way on purpose, I propose that it should be like that anyway. After all, the content about the games should be structured in a way that is most useful for the games. Cinder24 (talk) 07:53, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

(resetting indent)Hi, thank you both for using the talk page to discuss this issue! I can certainly understand your frustration that the table of contents feels cluttered because of how many section headers there are, Cinder. However, I think Finnish had a point in turning the pseudo-headers into proper headers, as those are important for navigation. Some articles link directly to a specific section on a page, and changing or removing those headers will cause those links to work improperly. For example, in the gallery on Glacia's Masters page, there's a link directly to the "Glacia's room" section on this page. If there was no section called "Glacia's room" on this page, that link would just take you to the top of this page, instead of the proper section.

However, that doesn't mean that no streamlining can be done to the table of contents. Having Glacia listed four different times in the table of contents seems a little unnecessary. So, why don't we keep the headers in the geography section as-is, and remove the headers for each individual Trainer in the Elite Four and Champion section? Those section headers didn't exist prior to the restructuring, and they're harder to link to from other pages since there are several of each, so there's no real harm in removing them. This would streamline the table of contents to:

1. Poké Mart
2. Items
3. Geography
   1. Pokémon League lobby
   2. Sidney's room
   3. Phoebe's room
   4. Glacia's room
   5. Drake's room
   6. Champion's room
   7. Hall of Fame
4. Trainers
   1. Pokémon Ruby and Sapphire
   2. Pokémon Emerald
   3. Pokémon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire
      1. First battles
      2. Rematches
5. In the spin-off games

...and so on. Is this compromise acceptable to everyone? Storm Aurora (talk) 05:54, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

This compromise looks good to me. --FinnishPokéFan92 (talk) 08:58, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

This decision looks perfect! I'll go ahead and make the change right now, thank you for weighing in! Cinder24 (talk) 22:01, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

I have been trying to submit the edit quite literally all day, but my connection with the server keeps timing out. I think it has to do with modifying a massive amount of links, as I had a similar issue when making the original edit removing the 27 links. I think I'll just revert the undo and then add the 7 links, rather than trying to delete 20. Just letting everyone know before I revert it so nobody assumes I'm going against the compromise! :) Cinder24 (talk) 06:12, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Ok, the compromise is now in place! Sorry about needing 3 edits to get it done. Part of that was Bulbapedia servers, but the other part was me still being relatively new to this wiki's editing program. I am aware of Bulbapedia's disdain for making multiple edits in quick succession though, and I will do my best to be cognizant of that in the future. Thank you for your assistance, Finnish and Storm! - unsigned comment from Cinder24 (talk • contribs)

Oh, uh...actually, when I suggested removing the E4 and Champion headers, I meant removing them entirely—not just converting them to fake headers using <big> tags. I worry that it could be misleading to others if the section has the appearance of subheaders without the functionality. Storm Aurora (talk) 07:23, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Oh my apologies, ok I will remove those lines. That is understandable, thank you! Cinder24 (talk) 20:27, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for taking multiple days! I have been trying to submit the changes for days now, and I finally learned that edits save a lot faster if you do them through the source code. Thank you for all feedback, and I hope this sets a good precedent! Cinder24 (talk) 21:04, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

No worries, I'm glad you were able to learn! Have a wonderful day! Storm Aurora (talk) 15:39, 5 June 2024 (UTC)