User talk:Croma

Welcome to Bulbapedia, Croma!

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Thank you, and have a good time editing here!   C.Ezra.Msomething to say? · My work documentation 18:13, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Transfer-only moves

Hey there, I've seen you made some edits regarding transfer-only moves, such as over at Mew (Pokémon)/Generation VII learnset.

While I appreciate any souls who doublecheck our data (regardless of if they actually find mistakes or not), for that page at least, I want to explain the two main reasons why I just undid your edits.

1. HM moves cannot be transferred, if they are HM moves in the game of origin (to the best of my/our knowledge). That's for cases like Rock Climb, which Mew should be unable to know in Generation VII.
2. The section is generally be meant to really be "transfer-only". For moves like Tri Attack, yes, you can transfer a Mew knowing that move to Generation VII/Sun and Moon. But more easily, you can just look further down that page, and see that you can have a Mew in Generation VII/LGPE with Tri Attack. (For generations other than Generation VII, that also implies that, in order to get a Pokémon with a move, you can just trade rather than have to transfer to any game of that generation, where transfer should always involve some more "effort".)

I hope that makes sense. (If it doesn't or if there's anything else, please let me know.) Happy editing! Nescientist (talk) 13:05, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Hey, you're right about Rock Climb, I mistook Defog and Whirlpool cases with the HM08 one, which instead is an HM in both gen IV Sinnoh and Johto. By the way the untransferability of HMs is valid between gen III and gen IV, and between gen IV and gen V, not anymore since PokéTransporter. About Dig, Tri Attack, Self-Destruct and every other move I added, they should be there for a reason. You can't trade a Pokémon from Let's Go Pikachu/Let's Go Eevee to Alola-based games on 3DS, thus to have a Mew that knows Tri Attack on Pokémon Sun you must transfer it, it's simple. I assure you that I read the MT list of the Kanto games for Switch, with even more reason since the actual transfer-only moves that were missing were almost only the same ones in the MT listing of LPE. Can't understand what do you mean talking about transfer and trade, I'm fully aware of the difference between them - and of the fact that the 3DS and Switch titles of gen VII can't communicate at all, too. If any, an error I've made was editing almost one move for each edit, but it took some time. I'm sure that those moves have the right to be there and that this work should be done for every learnset page. That's why I began with Mew, since it can learn every TM and Move Tutor regular move. I guess I'll update again with my adds, without the HM, of course. I hope that I made clear my point and I thsnk you again for the Rock Climb suggestion, happy editing to you, too. Croma (talk) 16:40, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

About HMs, yes exactly. I took that into account (I hope) when I pretty much generated that data for Bulbapedia.

What I was trying to say is basically: what you've been doing would be totally pointless if you did it for any other generation.

And even for Generation VII, where trading between games is not possible, it's still not what has been done. If you think that should be done differently, I guess it would need to change for all Generation I Pokémon? Are you saying you want to check all of them, and change them if necessary? (Their Generation VII learnsets specifically?) Nescientist (talk) 19:04, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

I can't understand your point, why should this be done in any other generation's learnset pages? There is no other case prior to LPE, while honestly I'm not much interested in movesets of VIII and IX gen, since the removal of lots of moves and the Battle Ready symbol that erases any transfer-only move.

Well yes, trading between Alola and Kanto isn't possible, but what do you mean with "it's still not what has been done"? I understand that the decision was to not add moves that in other ways are easily available in LPE, but imho this makes the transfer-only moves lists incomplete. So yes, I'm planning to check every gen VII learnset of every gen I Pokémon, as well as the ones of extra-generational evolutions of them (e.g. Blissey lacks at least Tri Attack).

I also plan to add some redundant moves to the lists like in Ambipom's case where the By transfer, only via prior evolution list should contain even the moves that are in the By transfer from another generation list that Aipom can know even if transferred from VC games. I think that this is important since a regular Aipom or Ambipom that knows Headbutt from HGSS is quite different from an Aipom with Headbutt 'and' its hidden ability. At least in generation VII this difference is substantial and I think that the evolution page should still be as comprehensive as the page of the pre-evolution.

Feel free to share your thoughts about this, I hope it can make sense to you too. I'm available to discuss about it and I want to make clear that I have no bad intention to the previous work you and others have done, on the contrary, I really appreciate it. Croma (talk) 00:39, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Ok then, cool. (We agree - I was trying to say exactly that.)

About your Aipom example, you would want to change potentially all Generation VII "By transfer, only via prior evolution" sections, then? If people care about Hidden Abilities, wouldn't they just browse the Generation I and II learnsets? (Hidden Abilities or lack thereof haven't really been a point of consideration, and I'm not sure they should be.) The redundancy you are proposing clashes with the "by transfer only" paradigm, so honestly I don't know.

Anyway, regarding the Generation I Pokémon Generation VII learnsets: I might still have the "raw" data here, so I might be able to help with that.

Also technically, I'd be more comfortable if we explained the reasoning for the "change" somewhere "public" (such as on a project talk page like here). Ideally, I guess it shouldn't be one person's idea, basically, but something that the community agrees is sensible (or at least, doesn't disagree with). Nescientist (talk) 17:58, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

I see your reasons about the Aipom case. My suggestion wouldn't make sense if the title of the section remains as it is and yeah, in these cases anyone would consult the moves learned by Aipom and not the Ambipom learnset page. So there's no need to apply that change. About Hidden Abilities it was just an example, not a criteria to follow, since it does have nothing to do with moves, even in cases like Machamp with Fissure (eventuality that is explained in the No Guard (Ability) trivia section anyway).

I didn't interpreted this type of addition as a big change since I intended it as mere completion of data and until two days ago I didn't think it was a community choice to not list those moves. I never partecipated actively to project discussions, I just edit here and there if I see something that needs to be fixed or corrected, so I didn't think about it but if you say it's better I guess I'll have to write in there. But is it that important? I don't want to bother anyone. But to be clear, if I write on the project page, would you be ok with the change? Any help would be appreciated since I check manually the gen VI learnsets and more to be sure to add the right moves into the list. Croma (talk) 23:25, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Just to clarify, about the project page, these were just my thoughts. Because.. it would be better, wouldn't it? (For example, I initially undid your edits, because I had no idea what you were up to. And the Aipom case, I could basically talk you out of before you even started. Obviously, that's only possible if your intentions are known.)

Anyway, I appreciate your efforts, and I don't want to introduce some unneccessary bureaucracy. So I'm completely fine if you just went ahead, especially if you're not feeling particularly comfortable writing on the project page (yet). (In that case, I might do it, though.)

So once again, thanks for your efforts, and have a nice time on Bulbapedia! Hope you'll be sticking around. Nescientist (talk) 15:41, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Hi, after a break I finished to add the missing transfer-only moves, I hope I haven't left any errors behind. In reply to your last message, you're right, it's certainly better to be able to make your own intentions known. About the learnsets, what do you think about listing the legacy moves that are also event moves in a generation too? E.g. Counter for Pikachu. After all they remain transfer-only for anyone who didn't have access to an event distribution. In any case, thank you for your feedback. Croma (talk) 16:41, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Well, at least I haven't found any errors (though I realized I can't doublecheck with the code I have, at least without substantially modifying it, since the game the move is/was in was never captured nor considered, just the generation).

About listing event-only moves anyway: While I did find a comment in my code asking if exactly these moves should be respected/handled differently, I also found that we (deliberately) decided against it. Nescientist (talk) 17:43, 16 March 2023 (UTC)