User talk:Oneofthosedf/Sandbox

I think this doesn't need circles (◯). If a Pokémon did not exist in a specified game, it only got an empty cell. --C.Ezra.M_{something to say? · My work documentation} 12:26, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Empty cells are also used for Pokémon that do not learn the move anymore in a given game. As I have mentioned on the relevant talk page, the distinction is needed for moves like Mud-Slap, where some Pokémon that learned the move in Generation VII don't learn it in Generation VIII, while other Pokémon that learned it~in Generation VII do not appear in Generation VIII games at all.

With Generation VII, the only thing of note is that Let's Go only have the first 151 Pokémon with their Alolan forms, plus Meltan family. Meanwhile in Generation VIII; while BDSP has all the Pokémon the original had (so Bulbasaur to Arceus) without the regional forms, it's all over the place with Sword/Shield and Legends: Arceus. Eridanus (talk) 12:46, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Eridanus already gave you the relevant information while I was responding. I personally don't think the template should have the circles before the Pokémon's introduction, but it should after that point. I'd like to ask your thoughts on the other changes. Feedback is always appreciated. Oneofthosedf (talk) 12:49, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

XD Move Tutors

Just got reminded, there are Move Tutors in XD: Gale of Darkness. Bunch of them are just repeats of FRLG or Emerald tutors, or special moves for Mew. There are three that aren't seen anywhere else in Generation III, though: Sky Attack, Selfdestruct and Nightmare. Eridanus (talk) 23:21, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, I will add that column too. What do you think of the changes overall? Oneofthosedf (talk) 08:04, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Myself I prefer the version where all games where the method does not apply are not present, feels less bloated (speaking of which, Earth Power is not present in Let's Go at all, as far as I know).

Also listing TMs/HMs for each game individually probably should be used only sparingly in older games, mostly when a TM compatibility changes mid-generation, like Hippowdon not learning Dig in DPPt but being able to do so in HGSS. There are very few mid-generation Machine changes before G7, most of them being HMs (Dive being gone in FRLG and Whirlpool replacing Defog in HGSS, Dive is absent in XY but readded in ORAS, and in ORAS Rock Smash moves back from a TM to HM, with Secret Power replacing it as TM94). The TMs didn't change drastically until Let's Go. This could also help with the Orre games, as some TMs are present in only either Colosseum or XD, and three of them (plus obviously HMs) are not present at all. Eridanus (talk) 09:04, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

You are right. I made revisions to better accommodate the mid-generational moveset changes. Oneofthosedf (talk) 10:36, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Indicating games in which a Pokémon does not exist

I think using the ◯ symbol to indicate games in which a Pokémon does not exist is interesting, but my inclination is that it would be better to explicitly mark games in which the Pokémon does exist but cannot learn the move with a ✘, and leave the other cases blank. That way, games before a Pokémon was introduced, and games after a Pokémon was introduced but that it is not present in, are both marked the same way.

Otherwise, I think it would be better to mark games before a Pokémon's debut with the ◯ symbol too. --SnorlaxMonster 11:25, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

I noticed that the ◯ symbols were replaced with ✘ symbols, but they're being used in the same way the ◯ symbols were. I think this is the wrong approach and only serves to make the tables unnecessarily cluttered (and honestly slightly misleading). If the Pokémon or move doesn't exist in a given game, there should be no need to indicate compatibility at all (i.e. we can just leave it blank). That's already how this page handles games before a Pokémon's introduction, so I don't understand why there is an inconsistency in how this is represented between games before and after a Pokémon's debut.

The occasion that is significant is when both the Pokémon and move do exist in a given game, but the Pokémon cannot learn it in the game (despite being able to learn it in other games)—that's the case we should be marking with ✘ symbols. --SnorlaxMonster 08:51, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

I agree. Here's the approach that should apply (BD — before debut, AD — after debut):

Does the Pokémon exist?	Is the move available?		Marking
	For the Pokémon	For the game
Yes	Yes	Yes	✔
Yes	No	Yes	✘
No	N/A	N/A	(none)
Yes	Yes	No (AD)	—
Yes	N/A	No (BD)	(none)

--C.Ezra.M_{rozmowa · sprawozdanie} 09:05, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

I'm fine with this, but honestly, I don't have a skin in this game. It was never part of my original suggestion, and I'm fine with the current look. I'd be much more open to feedback on the other parts of my design. Oneofthosedf (talk) 11:56, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

I think that marking cells before the Pokémon's debut could be done with the bright variation of the color for the move's type. --C.Ezra.M _(T/C) 21:11, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

TMs and Tutors

For Flamethrower (a move almost always taught by TM rather than Tutor), I think the streamlined version is much better than the other versions. The fact that from Gen 1-6 TMs almost never varied between games makes those columns really conducive to combining entire generations. In contrast, for your Icy Wind example, the second example layout is clearly the best-looking.

One way the second example could be improved is to use the same header style used for the third example, but just with different game breakdowns (so "VII USUM" instead of "VII SMUSUM", etc.). I think less chaotic colors would be a dramatic improvement, and the generation colors also tend to be softer so less distracting. --SnorlaxMonster 11:57, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

I originally preferred the second style for Icy Wind-type moves as well, but I had to realize that we might be better off if we make all three templates (learnset, tutor/TM/TR and breeding) uniform. So only having divided columns for Gen VII and VIII. Moves like Stealth Rock and Giga Drain have been both tutor moves and TMs, and it's impossible to come to a definitive answer whether they are primarily tutor moves or TM moves. I also kept in mind moves like Draco Meteor and Secret Sword, that are always available in the first versions as well. If we go with the second design, these moves would have multiple identical columns. I'm not a huge fan of the game tags next to the checkmarks, but thy served us well so far. A move like Secret Sword would only have checkmarks (✔) in the column, while a move like Magnet Rise would have the checkmark and the game tag as well. ✔^B2W2 or ✔^USUM. You can now see examples for these in my sandbox. That said, I'm open to modifications. Oneofthosedf (talk) 13:00, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

IoA superscript

It's not that much better on white. It's a very bright yellow, too close to white. This in contrast to pretty much every other superscript, which use darker colors that pop out on white background. Eridanus (talk) 17:12, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

I agree, it's not great. Do you have any suggestions? Oneofthosedf (talk) (contribs) 17:43, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

I think I will replace the IoA superscript with an ^EP superscript. I picked the Gen VIII/Galar color, which makes it perfectly legible. This is already how Bulbapedia marks the IoA tutor moves anyway, it's best if I don't change it. Oneofthosedf (talk) (contribs) 01:02, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Hide the cell with display: none or with a parser function?

I think that, instead, the cells that can be hidden should be instead wrapped by parser functions, instead of using display: none. This has one major advantage: the MediaWiki parser still parses cells with display: none, but not those hidden with parser functions.

So, instead of

! style="width: 40px; {{#ifexpr: {{{2|1}}}>4|display:none;|}} background:#9072A3; line-height: 1em;" | [[Generation IV|<span style="color:#FFF;">IV</span>]]

use

{{#ifexpr: {{{2|1}}}>4|! style="width: 40px; background:#9072A3; line-height: 1em;" {{!}} [[Generation IV|<span style="color:#FFF;">IV</span>]]}}

For the #ifexpr parser function, the last argument can be skipped (if skipped, there will be empty output if the condition outputs false). However, because we don't want the pipe (|, indicating the separator between the table's content and properties) to parse as an argument separator, the {{!}} syntax is used instead, unless it's used inside a link, a template or another parser function nested inside of it. --C.Ezra.M _(T/C) 21:11, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Hi, I actually wanted to talk before making the final suggestion, but I'm just incredibly flooded with work for now. I follow what you and TRG have been doing, and I love it, it inspires me. You are definitely on the right track to improve Bulbapedia and that's my goal as well. I wholeheartedly trust you with all the coding, because I am no big help when it comes to that field. Would it be too big to ask you to make a template with the proposed changes and with your additions? I figure going to the suggestion board empty-handed is not ideal, and you just suggested me something I didn't even know was possible, so you would be doing me a giant favor. Oneofthosedf (talk) (contribs) 00:02, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Two things

1. I don't think the list item height should be 68 pixels if we use the artworks. I think it's better to use a size of 48 pixels. 68 pixels just feels too big.
2. I think we could mark the cells after the move's debut but before the Pokémon's debut with the move type's bright color.

What do you think?

I also made the prototype new Movehead template. As for the move entry template, the successive move entries will be just passed as separate arguments. For #2, if the value were -2, then the cell would be colored with a non-white color, -1 means no learnability (white cell), 0 means by evolution, and 1-100 means a normal level. --C.Ezra.M _(T/C) 20:56, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

The colours specifically for backgrounds were disposed of because of their effect on the template limits. --Spriteit (talk) 10:57, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Still waiting for Oneofthosedf's thoughts on reducing the row size. --C.Ezra.M _(T/C) 16:20, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

I'm indifferent about the row size. Do what you feel is best for the design. I trust your judgment. Oneofthosedf (talk) (contribs) 11:18, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

My 2c

First of all I'm not sure if you're the one that came to me with the proposal for merging these movesets a while ago, if you are, hey there again, if not, welcome to the conversation. In case your curious, and you weren't the person that came to me, there will be 80 pages (i think) that required merging tables (as of IoA).

I find it funny that your templates feature a return to form for two of the issues we wanted to move away from. The first was increasing the horizontal spread by separating out fully games and especially with Gen VII and VIII. Given our users are moving towards accessing the site with mobile devices, we wanted to contain the horizontal spread as best we could, and that worked for a bit, however this last generation has made that increasingly difficult. The second is by removing the use of the sup-scripts when you are 1/2 way down a list, it can be difficult to keep track of what each column is for, especially since a lot of users may not be knowledgeable enough to know when a move debuted. Whereas the current system with the supscripts makes that fairly easy to work out (at least some of the time). Funnily enough the merging of TM/TR/Tutor moves into one is something I've actually been meaning to do for a while and just haven't had the chance, and as such will probably be the easiest sell. Same with moving to the artworks instead of the sprites, if nothing else, the current mess of menu sprites shows that we can't keep things how they are. Which returns me too merging the learnlist headers the way you want to I think will be your hardest sell. Separating them out though would allow handling of special cases where in one game something was a TM and another a Tutor.

I think your white background with sup templates in the header work best since move pages we'd be wanting to decrease the template usage as much as possible. Also EP would be used of IoA and CT as they are a single set. I actually like the idea of using the — instead of an X. I feel like the X gets kind of lost in the woods as it were and my eyes can't discern that it's not just another number as it were, where as the — is it's own thing and nothing like a number. I know it wasn't part of your suggestion, but try it out on your 4C or 2D and you'll see what I mean. I know there was something else I wanted to mention, but I've forgotten it in the process of reviewing and writing. But for now I quite like your suggestions, however I'm not one well versed in templates, so the decision regarding whether it gets approved or not is out off my hands. Though as the person that went around and changed the learnsets to what they are now, I'm not excited to go through and change it all back :P --Spriteit (talk) 10:57, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Hi! I did support one user suggesting it, who was adding in the SwSh movesets with me back in the day, when TMs and TRs were still separate. TMs and TRs were merged, but nothing more came of it, so it wasn't me.

I really can't do anything with the mobile issue (which is not really an issue for me, looks just fine). We are 9 generations in, the template is going to get wider and wider. The superscripts make them even wider. Also, if one is worried about mobile users, I cannot get my head around as to why having more content to scroll through vertically be beneficial for them. There is an incredibly easy solution (visually, not sure if it's easy to code) for getting lost as to which column represents which game/generation: color them with the generations/region's light color. Gen 1 would be light green, etc. SMUSUM would be light red, LGPE could have Gen 1 colors again (I noticed we use Gen 1/Kanto colors for it on quite a few pages, which is great). This way, if you are down in the 500's, you are still perfectly able to tell in which game the move is learnable. You check on top the superscript info, you keep that in mind (not difficult), and we can get rid of all that (helps decrease width).

#	Pokémon		Types	Egg Groups		Game
						IV	V	VI	VII SMUSUM	VII PE	VIII SwSh	VIII BDSP	VIII LA
						Tutor	Tutor	Tutor	Tutor	--	Tutor	Tutor	Tutor
373		Salamence		Dragon		Dragon	✔	✔	✔	✔	✘	✔	✔	✘

It's a bit dark for my taste, but workable. We could certainly do extra light here.

If width is still an issue, let's do something with egg groups. It is actually ridiculous that they are the widest part of the entire template. We could make it so they are vertical to each other, we could decrease the font size, etc. I don't know, it's the obvious candidate if decreasing width really mattered. Again, I think it still looks completely OK on mobile (and rotating is still an option).

I do not care about the circles, crosses and anything else anymore (saying this with the least amount of frustration). You are right, it wasn't part of my original suggestion, and I don't plan on suggesting them. Everyone wants to do it differently, and I am absolutely fine with the current way of doing things. I am already getting ready for a lot, and asking for a lot of help from others. I feel like this matter would be in better hands with others.

As for going back and changing the template, I would obviously take the lead on that. My suggestion, my work, though help is appreciated. Oneofthosedf (talk) (contribs) 12:31, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Just saw your comment above about colored background not being feasible due to template limitations, so here is a quick edit. It probably won't convince you, but I still think it's not too much to expect from users to remember the specific column they are looking for when searching for information. If they want to know if A can learn B in XY, they just keep in mind that it's the third column they need to look for. Oneofthosedf (talk) (contribs) 12:41, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

#	Pokémon		Types	Egg Groups		Game
						IV	V	VI	VII SMUSUM	VII PE	VIII SwSh	VIII BDSP	VIII LA
						Tutor	Tutor	Tutor	Tutor	--	Tutor	Tutor	Tutor
373		Salamence		Dragon		Dragon	✔	✔	✔	✔	✘	✔	✔	✘

As for the cell colors, Spriteit specifically talked about marking the cells when the move was coded into that game (but not the Pokémon) with a different color. This means you can have colored cells, but through the raw hex codes (NOT templates, as this will contribute to the template include size). However, this would increase the complexity of my proposed move entry template (which I didn't made yet), because I want it to have just pass a number of arguments (for now, 11) as levels or other means. As for the width issue, there are two approaches:

• Hide unneeded columns if viewport too narrow
  • This one is used by the Italian wiki. If the viewport gets too narrow, first, the type and Egg Group fields are hidden, and if even narrower, the Pokédex number and Pokémon's name are hidden, leaving just the image and levels (or checkmarks for means other than leveling up). This can be executed with media queries. As for styling single templates, it's best to use the TemplateStyles extension (I wonder why Bulbapedia still doesn't use it despite its benefits).
• Wrap the table in a <div> element
  • The div should have the overflow-x set to auto, so it will always either be visible or scroll. Because this could be used on so many move pages, it could be made into a class in MediaWiki:Common.css.

--C.Ezra.M _(T/C) 16:20, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Oh, I understand. I think this was more of a nitpick, really, since not knowing which column corresponds to which game is an issue already, but I believe that anyone who can count from 1 to 10 could figure it out. The checkmarks don't even show up colored on mobile, so none of my ideas are worth anyone's time (thankfully, I didn't like them).

I used to have a small fan-wiki, and even I managed to make the Egg Groups showing up vertically (after some time), so I know that it shouldn't be a huge deal. I want to reiterate that I don't have any probelms with the egg groups in their current form, they look perfectly fine on mobile. I just thought it was weird to talk about reducing width and not mentioning the most glaring example.

I am looking at the Italian wiki, and it looks nice. Definitely too much for my taste, but it's pretty good. I am a big fan of getting rid of images for the type bars and using wiki templates instead (non-gradient, of course). Zoom-proof and future-proof if we ever decide to change Bulbapedia's colors (hope not). I don't think the names and egg groups should be hidden on mobile, since it would make it impossible to search for specific Pokémon (an issue I already have with the Pokémon in Pokémon Go page). Also, rotating your device is a thing, made for situations exactly like this. Oneofthosedf (talk) (contribs) 17:36, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

FWIW, this is what I was referring to regarding the colours, it was simply non sustainable. I didn't mean for you to create full new examples though, I was saying I liked what you had developed and how it looked! --Spriteit (talk) 01:54, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Good. BTW, Spriteit, if you want to link to a page revision, you can just link to Special:PermanentLink/<revision_id>. This is so it doesn't e.g. load the desktop version of the website on a phone.

If including colors for columns is still a template include size issue, we could try using position: sticky for headers. I guess it would be easier with the TemplateStyles extension by adding the following CSS (assuming the move learnability table has the learnlist-move class):

.learnlist-move thead {
    position: sticky;
    top: 0;
}

TemplateStyles makes it much easier to style templates. It eliminates the need for sitewide CSS to style templates. --Bfdifan2006 07:14, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Header + images

Hey, I just wanted to say I finished testing my move header template and I think you can replace syntax like the following:

{| class="roundy" style="background: #{{ground color dark}};  border: 5px solid #{{ground color}}"
|-
! style="width: 26px; background:#{{ground color}}; {{roundytl|5px}} color: #000;" colspan="1" rowspan="2" | #
! style="width: 110px; background:#{{ground color}}; color: #000;" rowspan="2" colspan="2" | Pokémon
! style="width: 50px; background:#{{ground color}}; color: #000;" rowspan="2" | Types
! style="width: 100px; background:#{{ground color}}; color: #000;" colspan="2" rowspan="2" | Egg Groups
! style="background:#{{ground color}}; {{roundytr|5px}} color: #000;" colspan="8" | Level
|-
! style="width: 40px; {{#ifexpr: {{{2|1}}}>4|display:none;|}} background:#{{Sinnoh color}}; line-height: 1em;" | [[Generation IV|<span style="color:#FFF;">IV</span>]]
! style="width: 40px; {{#ifexpr: {{{2|1}}}>5|display:none;|}} background:#{{Unova color}}; line-height: 1em;" | [[Generation V|<span style="color:#FFF;">V</span>]]
! style="width: 40px; {{#ifexpr: {{{2|1}}}>6|display:none;|}} background:#{{Kalos color}}; line-height: 1em;" | [[Generation VI|<span style="color:#FFF;">VI</span>]]
! style="width: 40px; {{#ifexpr: {{{2|1}}}>7|display:none;|}} background:#{{Alola color}}; line-height: 1em;" | [[Generation VII|<span style="color:#FFF;">VII</span>]]<br><small>[[Sun and Moon|<span style="color:#FFF;">SM</span>]][[Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon|<span style="color:#FFF;">USUM</span>]]</small>
! style="width: 40px; {{#ifexpr: {{{2|1}}}>8|display:none;|}} background:#{{Galar color}}; line-height: 1em;" | [[Generation VIII|<span style="color:#FFF;">VIII</span>]]<br><small>[[Sword and Shield|<span style="color:#FFF;">SwSh</span>]]</small>
! style="width: 40px; {{#ifexpr: {{{2|1}}}>8|display:none;|}} background:#{{Sinnoh color}};; line-height: 1em;" | [[Generation VIII|<span style="color:#FFF;">VIII</span>]]<br><small>[[Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl|<span style="color:#FFF;">BDSP</span>]]</small>
! style="width: 40px; {{#ifexpr: {{{2|1}}}>8|display:none;|}} background:#{{Legends Arceus color}}; line-height: 1em;" | [[Generation VIII|<span style="color:#FFF;">VIII</span>]]<br><small>[[Legends Arceus|<span style="color:#FFF;">LA</span>]]</small>

with my template:

{{User:C.Ezra.M/Template:Movehead|ground|4|level|pe=no}}

Which will give this header:

#	Pokémon		Types	Egg Groups	Level
					IV	V	VI	VII SMUSUM	VIII SwSh	VIII BDSP	VIII LA	IX

Also, for images, no separate versions need to be uploaded. I believe it works this way: for as long as the page is kept cached, the image is rescaled by the server and kept in a separate file, and there is a 70px version of any given image displayed at this page. --Bfdifan2006 20:57, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Thank you and sorry for the late response. The template works perfectly, as expected. I was still slightly leaning towards omitting the rows for games where the move is not teachable, but it honestly might not be so bad this way. It certainly makes sense from a consistency standpoint, only omitting the rows when the move is literally not coded into the game. We'll see if the board will suggest it otherwise. Another big thing that I was fairly ignorant towards is the readability on mobile. Is there a way to ensure that the image in the entry template shows up (or doesn't show up, which probably preferable for mobile)? I think the miniscule sprites we have now is the worst of both worlds, they should either show up properly or not at all. Also, I love the type bar template you created. Would it be possible to implement those into the move entry template? The white type icons are available, so we could use Bulbapedia's official type colors in the BDSP style (no grey background for the text). I think that could be an improvement over the pixel art (which admittedly works very well on mobile). What do you think? Oneofthosedf (talk) (contribs) 20:47, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

The problem with Pokémon menu sprites not showing at the proper size is because of how MinervaNeue rescales images with CSS. It sets the width of all <img>s to 100% !important (as far as I remember), which is undesirable because it causes the second column to be really thin. I could test having the icon and Pokémon's name in the same table cell. Also, yes, I could create a variant of the type name icon template just to fit your idea of not having the grey background. I could make it wider than my original to fit some long type names. Colors might be a bit inconsistent because the SwSh/BDSP-styled type icons have backgrounds, but that's a small issue. --Bfdifan2006 21:24, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

I see, thank you. I personally would prefer no images for mobile, so if that can be turned off easily, don't bother with figuring it out. I really don't see the need for them in that version. We have the white icons for both SwSh and BDSP/LA available (on the internet and as previous versions of the icons here as well), they just need to be reuploaded separately and added to the respective galleries. The idea is not mine, though, BDSP uses the type colors for the entire bar and someone else suggested it before. All in all a pretty great idea, I think. Oneofthosedf (talk) (contribs) 21:34, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Note that I'm not making them yet. This is because I'm quite busy with school at the moment, and my will to do something else between 14-19 April. For instance, I was busy continuing work a small project website for web design class. After I sort everything out, I will start work on the move entry template.

Additionally, I could include Egg Group bars to be shown in the same cell. --Bfdifan2006 21:02, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

I am already more than grateful for your work. Take as much time as you want, and only do the things that you wish to. Concentrate on school, hang out with friends (it's finally spring), and all that. I am busy with work as well, but we have plenty of time. It's also probably best if we get the suggestions passed incrementally. First the new template, then the image changes, then the additional mobile tweaks. Oneofthosedf (talk) (contribs) 23:07, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Egg Groups

Seems like the main examples have misaligned Egg Group fields. The header should span 2 rows, so that Pokémon in two groups have both groups under the header (with one group mons using "rowspan=2" for the field). Eridanus (talk) 20:21, 19 May 2022 (UTC)