Bulbapedia talk:Project Moves and Abilities

What goes and what don't

I've just begin to edit some move pages and I was wondering what should go there. For example, a 2nd generation move (like Rain Dance) should have something like "This move didn't exist on 1st generation" under Effect - Generation I?

Don't bother creating a Generation I heading. - 振霖_T 01:44, 10 March 2006 (CST)

Also, things like the fact that Stomp will deal double damage on a minimized foe, should be on the Stomp page, the Minimize page or in both?

Both. - 振霖_T 01:44, 10 March 2006 (CST)

And finally, moves like Frenzy Plant or Volt Tackle should mention the way you could obtain them (since its uniqueness)?

Of course. - 振霖_T 01:44, 10 March 2006 (CST)

New member

I would like to join the project as collaborator, who should I ask? Gambler 09:27, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Glitch attacks?

Should we or should we not give the glitched attacks like TM06 articles? After all, we give the glitched Pokémon like Q separate articles... Why not the attacks as well? Tom Temprotran 03:12, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Leaf Blade

Leaf Blade seems to have gained power in Diamond/Pearl. --Raijinili 15:27, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

New Member number two

Sign me up. This is pretty much the reason I joined here, hehe. I've got access to all of the GBA Pokémon games, so as far as research and whatnot, I believe I can get most (if not all) of the moves so far. By all means, let me know right away if I can be of assistance. -- Jioruji Derako.> 05:36, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Alright, I have a question to start things off. On move pages that have been automatically added, the move's details are in a table on the right side of the screen. This contains the Type (electric, grass, etc), PP, dmg, among other things. One thing I notice is a "Catagory:" {{{damagecatagory}}}. What is this supposed to read? Is it simply something added in that has nothing to do with the move? I've checked some moves that seem to have all the info, and they don't seem to have this heading in the table. -- Jioruji Derako.> 05:53, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

That's supposed to be whether the move is physical or special in Generation IV. Most, if not all, moves probably don't have the info, as we've mainly been focusing on the new Pokémon for the past few months... Now that we know all of their names, though, it'd be a good idea to have people focus on the MoveDex instead of the Pokédex, though it'd be a good idea to add the Pokédex and availability templates to the Pokémon articles... all 493 of them... --TTEchidna 06:53, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I think I'll stick with Move discriptions for now, thanks... *shuffles away from the large scary number* -- Jioruji Derako.> 07:08, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the amount of moves is only a slight bit less than the amount of Pokémon, 467 compared to 493. --TTEchidna 08:25, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Hey, 467's a small number compared to four-hundred and ninety-three. -- Jioruji Derako.> 08:44, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Images of the move

I think that it would be a good idea to put a image of the move of the games or at least of the anime to make the Dex more complete. What do you think? --Bono 22:27, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

That sounds like a good project, but how hard would that end up being in the long run? Obviously, it's going to mean a lot of images... also, how will you get the images? I've got some experience with graphics as well, so providing it's not a big deal getting the images in the first place, I'm willing to help out with the uploading and formatting. -- Jioruji Derako.> 03:49, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Lets take Signal Beam as example.

It can be placed in the infobox, and its not so hard to make a screenshot of the moves. I don't think there was a legal problem, right??--Bono 16:54, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Would an animated gif work for the game screen? -Happy Mask Man 17:24, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

That would be great, but i think is very VERY heavy in kb, they are an infinite of moves and everyone would have a gif, plus they are the jpges of the anime, so it's a LOT of bytes. Well, are you all agree with this sub-project?? --Bono 18:01, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

My only question at this point would be, wgere do we get the screencaps? Is there a site that doesn't mind up copying their pictures, or is there possibly a good way of gathering these screencaps ourselves? -- Jioruji Derako.> 04:32, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, i guess everybody have at least one season of the anime in their PC, or we can wait the Episode of the Day Club of PM and make screenshots of the moves, and the images of the game, well, we can capture it of a rom of GBA, it's not so hard. PS: How can i be a official member?? :D --Bono 16:14, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

So, any ideas of how we can place the images?? I think it could be in the infobox, or in a special sub-section of the article?? because the infobox is pretty long right now. The other possibility is put them in the box and put the "touches/can miss" stuff in a sub-section for more space, to make the box don't be larger than the article. Anyone know how to edit the box? --Bono 00:22, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I can edit the boxes if need be. I think the box could be made wider, otherwise we're ending up with a lot of unused space next to it... I'll try to get an example posted in a bit (I'm restricted to typing with one hand atm, so bare with me). -- Jioruji Derako.> 08:25, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Here's an example...

Signal Beam シグナルビーム
A strange beam attack that may confuse the foe.
Battles
Type	Bug
Category	{{{damagecategory}}}
PP	15 (max. 24)
Power	75
Accuracy	100%
Does not touch Can Miss Not affected by Snatch Not affected by Magic Coat Uses King's Rock Does not use sound
???

So, how's this look? It would require a bit of tweaking to the move template, but it's doable. -- Jioruji Derako.> 08:44, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

If the image were to be centered, it'd look nicer. --TTEchidna 09:05, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it looks awesome, i like it. Now, where we can place the anime image??, can be in the box, but we would have to take out a info of the box because it would be too long.

This is just an idea, in the infobox will be just the general information:

• Name of the move.
• Name in japanese.
• Move info.
• Game image.
• Type.
• PP.
• Power.
• Accuracy.
• Anime image.
• Links.

And in a little infobox in the left after descrption (Move is a damage...)

• Battles.
• Touch/Miss/Snatch/Magic Coat/King's Rock/Sound info.
• Battle description.
• Contests.
• Category.
• Appeal.
• Jam.
• Contest description.

Then the languages and the learnset. Now we have the info more organized and the learnset boxes not sooooo down. Somebody know how to cut the boxes just for the example?? what do you think??. --Bono 16:05, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok guys, TIME TO VOTE, i made some changes so ... wich looks better??

Example 1 - Signal Beam

Example 2 - Haze

Lets choose one and then we can make minor edits. --Bono 23:06, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I think I like them both... how about we have the battle image in the infobox, and the anime image off to the side? Another thing I'd like to do is rearrange the formatting a bit, so the move details section of the page is next to the infobox, at the top of the page. White space ticks me off. :P I can get around to making another example of that as well, if you like. -- Jioruji Derako.> 00:06, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Please do it, i hate white space too xD --Bono 00:26, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, formatting's proving to be a bit more challenging then I thought... the table of contents keeps getting in my way. Just thought I'd share a little way I found to remove the TOC... just add __NOTOC__ to the page. There's another code that can be added in as well to re-insert the TOC somewhere else, out of the way.

Since I don't have move images to use for an example, I'll make a copy of one of your examples in my userspace temporarily until I get the formatting figured out. -- Jioruji Derako.> 00:59, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Use it man, those images are now property of Bulbapedia. --Bono 01:05, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd definitely recommend keeping the damage category in there. Now that DP doesn't define them by their type anymore, you have to see the damage type in order to determine whether it utilizes the Attack or Special Attack stat. --TTEchidna 03:33, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Ah, wonderful. (is speaking sarcastically.) I took a break from editing up a good example article, and promptly lost my internet connection for a whole day. Hopefully I can get a working example up in a bit, though no promises, obviously. -- Jioruji Derako.> 21:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Alright, took much longer then expected, but I've got a small example page up here. I noticed that the coding for the learnset list was lengthening the page, so I removed it. This leaves a bit more room to mess around, I think. Still need a spot to put the Anime image; and could use a bit more writing on the page. Feel free to edit what I've got set up. -- Jioruji Derako.> 05:23, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Hmm... Maybe a sub-heading of "In the anime" detailing what the first episode it was used in was, whether any of the characters' Pokémon know it, and so on...? Perhaps putting the picture on the left side of that heading's details would work... --TTEchidna 09:41, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Man, thats exactly what i've been thinking in a day or so xD. So that's it, we will use the infobox of Jioruji and in the new sub-heading "In the anime" the picture in the left, the episodes where it has been used (if they are few, we can't put the list of episodes for the move Thunder, that would be sick :P) and the differences between the same move in different Pokémon. --Bono 18:36, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Same thing if you looked for Water Gun in the anime, nearly every one of Ash's Water-types have used it. I think that the first episode it was used in would be good, with the main characters' Pokémon that have used it being listed as well. --TTEchidna 18:41, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Totally, so the descrption of the anime section would be the image, the Pokémon/Trainer/Episode where it has been used and the differences between the same move in different Pokémon. --Bono 18:49, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

The prototype is ready ... Signal Beam ... The infobox now has the place for the image and the project page has an anime structure. Finally we can put the images in the articles. REMEMBER, the anime image has to show the entire move and has to be impressive to look :P , please let's not fight for this-one-is-better-than-that-one, but if you have an image that explain better the move or if is way prettier, edit the article. --Bono 02:29, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I took a bit of a break there, but nice to see everything's been set up while I was gone. :P I don't have a way to get screencaps, but let me know if there's anything else I can help out on (I'll probably get to work on more detailed discriptions if I can, at some point). -- Jioruji Derako.> 10:12, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

That would be great, i'm not so good in the descriptions, i prefeer the caps :P --Bono 23:17, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I've been playing around with Protect since we had a picture of Elekid using it. --FabuVinny 16:45, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Smeargle

We HAVE to put Smeargle in every breeding box??, it really can learn all the moves or only many of them?? --Bono 03:23, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Any move that can be Sketched can be learnt by Smeargle. - 振霖_T 06:10, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

TMs with constant attacks.

TM06, TM14, TM15, TM22, TM25, TM26, TM28, TM29, TM32, TM38, and TM44 have never changed which move they teach, however they are all disambiguation pages. I was under the impression that disambiguation pages are supposed to point towards two or more pages that could be confused, but in these cases the pages only point to one page. Also, all of the TMs over 50 redirect to their corresponding moves, so would it be all right to change all of these to redirects? Drapion 01:58, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

For consistency, I'd say leave them. On the other hand, perhaps these should be expanded from mere disambiguation pages to item pages like on the Japanese Pokémon wiki, which lists prices and locations. - 振霖_T 02:05, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, consistency was my reasoning, particularly for the category. TM51+ are just redirects because they have all only been in one generation. (We can deal with Generation V when we get to it.) --FabuVinny 16:45, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Yet another new member

I've got time on my hands and nothing to fill it with, so if there's no objections I'd like to become a collaborator. Who do I have to ask? - mronimusha

I think you just need to add your name to the list, really. There's no one person in charge of this, I don't think. And of course, you don't need to be part of the project to contribute to the project. :D -- Jioruji Derako.> 18:04, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

New Member

I'm a new member and i'm from Italy, so I added some attacks'name in italian. I can continue, maybe doing something (like adding my name in list)? Excuse for my english.

Another member

I'd like to contribute to the MoveDex project too. SSBMboss 11:54, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm joining

Like the title says, I'm interested in joining to help out with this project. --Metallica Freak 13:27, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Anime images

I realize the Project guidelines state that all pics be 240px, but I personally think putting the <gallery> tags around them looks a lot better. The way it's currently at, there's so much white space on the page. I don't know if it should be changed or not, but I just wanted to know what everybody else thinks. --PAK Man ^Talk 20:50, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I think that it's fine as it is, in 'gallery', the pics are too small. --Theryguy512 20:54, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

The size of the pictures in the gallery is fine. It also improves the presentation of the page when there are multiple pictures and I did make a note above when I first made such an edit without complaint. --FabuVinny ^T-C-S 14:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Just to clarify, it's fine for the pictures to be 240px if there is only one on the page. But there seems to be trend of more images on one page arising and in that case we need to use the gallery for sanity of layout. --FabuVinny ^T-C-S 14:44, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Ga-ler-ry! You can click to enlarge it anyway. Without gallery, everything seems so much longer for no reason. Tina ^δ♫ 02:08, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I know everyone already hates me for this (and probaly other reasons too with I hope you forgive me), but how about we settle this with a Bulbapedia Poll. Until we decide that can everyone agree (for now, at least) to leave the pictures the orginal way??? Please, at least just for now! --Theryguy512 00:18, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay. Why the heck do we need to decide everything with a poll? Seriously. The talk page is here for a reason. Tina ^δ♫ 00:26, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I actually agree. I'm not saying I take your side, but a poll is a good idea. -ニョロトノ666

No! No more polls! Provide an actual reason for why we shouldn't use the gallery. --FabuVinny ^T-C-S 00:26, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Reasons why I say polls - 1. It's smaller. You can click to enlarge pictures anyway. 2. It's clean-looking. 3. Why not? The gallery is there for a reason, it's there for when you need a small area but show lots of pictures. Tina ^δ♫ 00:29, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay, fine. I guess the gallery won't be so bad.....You win. --Theryguy512 02:28, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

TMs

(Now I remember the reason why I came to the talk page in the first place..) I think we should include if the move is a TM, which number it is, what Generations did it appear in, where to find it... but rather brief, like Route XXX, or XXX Gym.. I dunno. Just a suggestion. If there is one, hit me on the head and show me where. Tina ^δ♫ 02:13, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

New Member

I can help with the translations of the moves.

Confusion

Hello, I've just joined the project, and am currently working on adding wikilinks to all the articles for moves that cause confusion. Before I started, not one of them had a link for a person to find out more about confusion. Since some of the articles have differing levels of content, here is how I determined which instance of the word (confuse/confused/confusion) to link:

1. If the word occurs in the articles lead paragraph, link the first instance of it there.
2. If not, but it appears in the Effects section, link the first occurence in that section.
3. If not in the lead paragraph, and there is no Effects section, link the word where it appears in the description of the infobox.

I think every move should have an Effects section (a lot don't), and every move that causes confusion (or any other status effect) should say so in its lead paragraph, but I don't have time right now to do all that, this is easy. Dansiman 22:19, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't link in the infobox. Just add what it does in the opening paragraph if it doesn't say. TTEchidna^G_SDS! 02:44, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Do we have a Stub-section template or something? You could just add Effect headers to moves that don't have them, and stub them. They'll need effect listings at some point anyway, putting the section there would make it simple and noticeable to anyone else passing by, that the move needs it's effect written up. -- Jioruji Derako.> 05:38, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Quick check; seems that {{gamestub}} is the correct tag for that. Do we normally stub a section if it's unfinished, or are the tags reserved for only really unfinished articles? I would think at the least, if the Effect section is blank, then the page itself would qualify as a stub... -- Jioruji Derako.> 05:41, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

'bats

Hi guys, I figured this would be the best place to put this question, since it spans several articles:

Do Zubat, Golbat and Crobat learn Scary Face in Generation II? Zubat and Golbat's pages say so, Crobat refers to Mean Look for that generation. I don't seem to find much conclusive evidence either way with a quick search online. The Mean Look page lists all three of them, though, for that generation; so my guess is that Scary Face should be removed from those move lists. Still, the situation's ambiguous enough that I'd rather someone with the game(s) at hand double-check that situation and clear up the inconsistency than 'be bold' myself. -Pinkgothic 18:20, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

STAB

Hmm... On Pokémon pages, we bolden the Pokémon that can learn a move and get STAB from it, and italicize those who can learn a move and whose evolutions can get STAB from it. Why not do that for the Pokémon names in the move articles? TTEchidna^G_SDS! 03:07, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Sounds fairly simple of a process, bolding works on the Pokémon name templates we use right? -- Jioruji Derako.> 04:01, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Generations

Shouldn't moves be categorised by Generation? Flicky1991 14:07, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

One thing.

For the images, I think there should be one image for each generation for the In the anime section. Also, I think there should be one Image for each generation for the in game picture. Just a thought. TESHIGIGAS 18:12, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and I think the Headers are too big. TESHIGIGAS 18:12, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Fixing the headers and changing the "is a Normal-type move" to "is a Normal-type move" is what I've been doing. As for each gen having an in-game shot, yes, certainly... but it should be in a gallery under "effect". TTEchidna 21:36, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Ever since you made that edit on Ash's page, the Level 1 Headers seemed so alien to me. So I've changed every other page I've come across, other than Pokémon pages and Move pages. It seems to be grouped better without the grey lines. So can I change the Pokémon pages? TESHIGIGAS 18:20, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you ask Zhen Lin to program BulbaBot to do that? --Theryguy512 18:26, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Mystery Dungeon Data

Are there plans on adding any data that's specific to Mystery Dungeon? The data we need is the following:

• Base Power
• PP (as they likely differ between MD and the main games)
• Accuracy (as they likely differ between MD and the main games)
• Probability of critical
• Attack ranges (line range, all in room, one space cuts corners, etc)
• Flags
  • Affected by Magic Coat
  • Affected by Snatch
  • Affected by Muzzled status
  • Does not damage frozen opponents
  • Affected by Taunt
  • Affected by Ginseng
• Other possible side effects that may differ from the main games (such as Crunch being a 40% cringer instead of lowering (S)Def)

I am interested in helping with PMD if anything gets started--Inspyre 21:18, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

KelvSYC 06:39, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Wants to join

I want to join this project, too. I just finished editing Dragon Rush. Please proofread. Thanks. JirachiWishmaker0802 10:40, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

1024 x 768

Hey. The new learnset tables make some move pages not display real great on monitors with resolutions of 1024x768 or lower. Cause some of the tables are so long (vertically), they don't start until the infobox on the right ends.

It doesn't affect all pages - ones with decent In the anime sections are fine, but for moves like Pound, it just makes the page look dumb. Is anyone concerned about this? Obviously, it's not a huge issue. It just looks not great on my tiny laptop screen. -Pat 14:46, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Move tutor

Does that also go into play? We still need work on this... ^ht14 01:48, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Descriptions

I have seen descriptions on move pages saying stuff like "somewhat damaging" and "fairly accurate". Is there any guidelines for what is considered what, or should these be edited out, or {Insert a third option that I am able to think of at the moment} The Dark Fiddler - Smarter than the average bear! 17:18, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

I think those labels are too opinionated, along with the "deals very little damage" statements, so I'm removing them until a better option is found. Plus, people could just look at the move's information on the side of the page. TESHIGIGAS 20:14, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

In the anime templates

This might be a silly question, but what's the difference between the movemid and movebtm templates? Or rather, when should you use which one? --Snowrunt ♥ ♥ 03:08, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

btm for the most bottom one. It basically adds a curve at the ends. ^tc²₆tc₂₆ 03:10, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

3rd gen. screenshots

Should we replace current screenshots from 3rd gen games for 4 gen ones?--AOS 09:19, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

YOU. Join my project. NOW! You'll see it is a work already in progress. --ケンジのガール 09:36, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Done, I'll strikethrough the moves that I updated later--AOS 10:26, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

KG, mind if I add a link to your page there on the main Project page? -- Jïörüjï Ðērākō.>.cнаt^ 17:00, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Mystery Dungeon Data.

Mystery Dungeon Data would be nice to add. But how much? And where? Should there be a new template, and what should it have? I would personally like to see some more data about the effects of moves in PMD, and I am willing to add whatever I can. - unsigned comment from Inspyre (talk • contribs)

Well first off, don't forget to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~).

On to the topic though. We do have hopes for a template or section within each move article for the PMD versions of them; I personally only play the regular series of games, so I can't provide any data on the PMD moves. If I can get enough data to design a template for it, then it will be a simple matter of putting the template into each move article and having people like yourself fill in the details. -- Jïörüjï Ðērākō.>.cнаt^ 02:00, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Jio, all that would be required for a template for moves would be quite the same as normal moves, their PP and power is quite different, and there are MD exclusive moves...--^Psychic_Rider^☮ 02:04, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

"In the Manga"

I had a neat idea that we could start. You know how we have a section on most of the move articles that shows the move being used in the anime? Would it be too much work to do it for the manga too? For example for Razor Leaf we could show an image of lets say Mega using Razor Leaf from the Manga and then put it into this:

Turtwig Bulbasaur Sunflora Grotle
A sharp-edged leaf is launched to slash at the foe. It has a high critical-hit ratio.
Pokémon	Method
User	First Used In		Notes
	Razor-sharp Leaves come out from under its bulb and fly into the opponent.
Ash's Bulbasaur	Primeape goes Bananas		Debut
May's Bulbasaur	Grass Hysteria		None
	Venusaur launches multiple razor-sharp leaves from its back.
Corey's Bruteroot	Mewtwo Strikes Back		None
A Venusaur James borrows from the Battle Park	One Trick Phony!		None
	Bellsprout launches two razor sharp leaves from the two large leaves on its stem.
Jeanette Fisher's Bellsprout	The Fourth Round Rumble		None
Zackie's Bellsprout	A Bout with Sprout		None
	Weepinbell spins around in a circle, and bunches of leaves come out and fly at the opponent.
Erika's Weepinbell	Pokémon Scent-Sation		None
	Victreebel launches razor sharp leaves from the two large leaves on the sides of its body.
James's Victreebel	A Shipful of Shivers		None
James's second Victreebel	Here's Lookin' at You, Elekid		None
	Chikorita swings its head and razor-sharp leaves fly out from the leaf on its head.
Casey's Chikorita	The Double Trouble Header		None
Ash's Chikorita	The Chikorita Rescue		None
Kotone's Chikorita	DP143		None
	Bayleef swings its head and multiple razor-sharp leaves fly out from the leaf on its head.
Casey's Bayleef	The Bug Stops Here		None
Ash's Bayleef	Current Events		None
	Meganium swings its head and razor-sharp leaves fly out from the antennas on Meganium's head.
Jackson's Meganium	Tie One On!		None
	Bellossom spins and razor-sharp leaves fly out.
Unknown Trainer's Bellossom	Arriving in Style!		None
	Sunflora's petals glow white, then Sunflora slashes its foe.
Nando's Sunflora	A Secret Sphere of Influence!		None
Sunflora	Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Time & Darkness		None
	Lombre spins its entire body, releasing sharp leaves in the process.
Brock's Lombre	Take the Lombre Home!		None
	Razor-sharp leaves fly out from the leaf on Nuzleaf's head.
A Wild Nuzleaf	Leave it to Brocko!		None
	Turtwig swings its head and razor-sharp leaves fly out from the leaves on its head.
Ash's Turtwig	Gettin' Twiggy With It!		None
Gardenia's Turtwig	The Grass-Type is Always Greener!		None
	Razor-sharp leaves fly out from the bushes on its back.
Ash's Grotle	Aiding the Enemy!		None
	Snover releases sharp leaves from its hand.
Candice's Snover	Sliding Into Seventh!		None

Do you understand what I am getting at? -- Landfish⁷ 19:15, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

That might work out nicely, assuming we can get manga scans easily. Perhaps I'll see if I can rough up a "In the Manga" template soon. (poke me if I take too long.) -- Jïörüjï Ðērākō.>.cнаt^ 22:19, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, It's nice to feel like I've started something useful for Bulbapedia. I'll remind you if it has been a while like you requested. -- Landfish⁷ 00:05, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

I've got a template up and running. It's just a matter of, do we have enough manga scans of moves to make the section worthwhile?

I'd like to implement the section in a few articles, I just want to have enough content to fill those sections. -- Jïörüjï Ðērākō.>.cнаt^ 07:43, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

I guess we'll have to look into that. It wouldn't be a big deal if only a few moves could use it. Well tell me whatever you want me to do when you are ready. Of course unles you want to take care of it yourself. The reason I came up with the idea is because there are some major differences between the manga, the games, and the anime. If we did this we could not only see what the move looks like in the anime but we could see the differences between the two.-- Landfish⁷ 22:32, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, I suppose it wouldn't be a big deal, no. Let's see, we've got one scan of Razor Leaf at least...

If you want to go ahead and see what moves could use the manga template, I'm all for it. You can post a list here or something. Once we have enough moves ready for it (even if it's just a few), I'll "officially" create the template and we can start adding it to move articles. -- Jïörüjï Ðērākō.>.cнаt^ 14:09, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

What we need to do is get someone (or some people) to upload pictures of pokemon from the manga using moves. Then we could gather the pictures up in somebody's (probably yours) userspace and they can be responsible for making the templates and putting them in the articles. I'm not sure how this will all be in the longrun but it's just a suggestion. With the anime articles they don't use templates like how you would use an image. So we would have to copy and paste the code into the article. Do you understand what I mean? -- Landfish⁷ 15:46, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

I've brought this up before here, and the decision was not to include them, and having started reading the manga, it's understandable as the attacks are mostly left unanamed, leaving them unidentifiable, or open to discussion. --Spriteit 12:28, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

It might still warrant addition, however only on a few moves (Razor Leaf is fairly easy to spot, as are a few others). I'll have to see. -- Jïörüjï Ðērākō.>.cнаt^ 19:31, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

So what are we going to do next then? I'm pretty eager to help if I knew what to do. Right now I am willing to look through the internet and find as many moves as possible but I am not really familiar with uploading new files which is why I haven't done such. If I can figure this out, I have a way of getting the pictures. So, anyone willing to learn me how to upload a file.-- Landfish⁷ 02:15, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

So long as the images you find aren't copyrighted under someone else's license (i.e., they're found on another website that uses the CC by-nc-sa license, or they're from an official site), you can save the file to your computer, go to the Archives, and upload it through the "upload media" sidebar link. Just need to give it a descriptive filename, like "Razor Leaf manga1.jpg" or something along those lines.

Here, I have a working Manga tamplate in my userspace; feel free to start testing on the talk page right there (I've already got a basic test up there). I still don't want to move the template to the mainspace until we're 1. positive we can use it in at least a few move articles, and 2. we have enough images (or perhaps at least enough information) to fill the section. (Perhaps it would be acceptable to only have one or two images per move, so long as there's enough information to fill up the rest of the template.)

Standard userspace rules apply to everyone's userspace, so try not to make too many edits if you're going to test anything. Everyone's allowed to edit the page I linked to, however. -- Jïörüjï Ðērākō.>.cнаt^ 12:23, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

So what are we waiting for? All we need to do now is find pictures of the confirmed move. --Merry Christmas! Landfish⁷ 21:32, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm going through the manga, (albeit at my own pace, so whenever i have time) and collecting images from the manga we can use, including attacks, I've done the first three so far, however, most of the attacks I have got the attacks for, the names weeren't said, but it is implied, or can be decently assumed. See my userpage for the images I have collected.--Spriteit 00:27, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, seems like Vine Whip, Razor Leaf, and other such moves are pretty easy to find in the manga; perhaps we can scrounge up enough to fill a few move pages.

Spriteit, think you can upload a few of those confirmed move scans? Maybe with a few of those, we can get started on a page or two, see how it works out. -- Jïörüjï Ðērākō.>.cнаt^ 13:30, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

From up to chap 3 only two moves have been named, SolarBeam and Water Gun (Solar Beam Charging, SolarBeam Firing, Water Gun). The only problem I can see that we face is the inconsistency in regards to image sizes of the different panels, that, and getting completely clean shots. I'm gonna try to do up to chapter 10 tonight. Thanks ery much for your help also Jioruji.--Spriteit 06:32, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

With such a small number of confirmed, named moves, I don't think an "In the manga" section is going to work as a template in every page; however, for the few that are confirmed, I do think they should be in the move articles.

Let's try to focus on those named moves for now; I'm not sure if it would be easier to display this information in a template, or in some other form, but as an encyclopedia, I do think it should be noted. We'll try to collect what we can on the confirmed moves for now, and start adding them to pages later on.

I'll add a bit of what we've got to my userspace, feel free to edit that yourselves as well. And thanks for the scans, Spriteit. -- Jïörüjï Ðērākō.>.cнаt^ 14:02, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

New Logo?

I was thinking mabye we could change the logo of the project to just Mew, for obvious reasons. - unsigned comment from Missingletter (talk • contribs)

Perhaps if we ever need a new logo, Mew will be top of the list. However, I don't think the logo is quite that important at the moment. -- Jïörüjï Ðērākō.>.cнаt^ 09:12, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Inconsistency on Generation I

As everyone who works on this project probably knows (those that care about Generation I, at least), the battle system is set up oddly in Generation I in that every attack has a 1/256 chance of missing or not having an additional effect activate in addition to its commonly listed failure rate. This is displayed in all of the additional effect descriptions of the moves (most of them, anyways), but is not listed for their accuracies. It just seems inconsistent to me to say that Stomp has a 100% accuracy, but a 29.7% chance of causing the foe to flinch.

Personally, I think that we should just have everything listed at its face value, ignoring the 1/256 chance. The only time people really would care is when the "100%" things miss, and it would be kind of extreme to have every move have a Genration I Accuracy line. But that's just my opinion. Any thoughts? Schreiber 23:09, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm in favor of fixing these for consistency. Like you said, the 1/256 chance isn't tied to each move, it's the whole battle system, so technically, those move effects have a 30% chance of triggering, not 29.7% (the 1/256 chance is more or less seperate).

The subtleties of the Gen. I battle system can be listed in higher articles (such as the ones on Gen. I in general), so I'll say it's better to list the move effects without that 1/256 chance taken into account. (I believe I've occasionally edited some moves as such already, anyway.) -- Jïörüjï Ðērākō.>.cнаt^ 02:48, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

I'll get the rest, then. Schreiber 05:45, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

The poor quality of the screenshots

I don't know if anybody besides me has noticed this at all, but in pretty much every single screenshot that I see, there are these ugly black blocks everywhere... and when I play any Gen IV game on my DS, none of this ugly black junk is there. For example, the in the Sunny Day article, the sun's rays are outlined with black squares everywhere. For another example, in the Fire Blast article, the flame has an outline of black blocks around it. I don't see any black on my DS. The list goes on: there is no shortage of screenshots with black blocks everywhere. It seems that whenever there's supposed to be translucency, it's replaced with black instead, for some reason. It seems that people use some emulator (which, by the way, I personally frown upon using emulators for a current gen system, because that hurts Nintendo) with poor emulation quality. Is it possible that there's a different emulator without this very noticeable flaw, use Gen III screenshots instead (since VisualBoyAdvance DEFINITELY doesn't have this issue), or maybe use a photograph of a real DS? (Although, the latter may be problematic too, but at least it doesn't have the glaring black crap all over every screenshot.) --Blaziken257 17:03, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

That's why I have been uploading replacement screenshots for moves, or at least asking other people to overwrite the bad image these days as I had had enough of the lack of alpha transparency in the screenshots. --Turtwig Lover 11:46, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Partial trapping moves

We need a page for partial trapping moves, which i have seen scattered around several articles. I would write it myself, but there is a paradox: i get most of my fandom information from here, and therefore do not know what they are. Does anyone else think we need a page for it? Flyingtypefan 05:05, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
[moved here from Bulbapedia talk:Project Fandom —darklordtrom 06:52, 27 May 2010 (UTC)]

Partial trapping is moves like Wrap, Fire Spin and Whirlpool right? If so we have a list of them here which might help. Werdnae (talk) 06:59, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Oh, i didn't know about that. I thought we should have a page, a category, or something for them. But we do. Flyingtypefan 03:50, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

One more suggestion

An "in Mystery Dungeon" section for move articles. I am aware that spinoffs aren't the focus of this project, but they do work very, very differently in PMD than usually. Flyingtypefan 06:43, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

The idea's been thrown around before, but nothing much has come of it (mainly because not a lot of editors have both the technical expertise to make such templates/pages, AND also play the side games). It's something that does need to be documented in some way, however, once we've worked out what exactly is needed, and what place there is for the information. -- Jïörüjï Ðērākō.>.cнаt^ 22:20, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

smeargle link battles

I've started raising a smeargle team, and I've noticed that when sketch is used in a link battle, any moves that smeargle will learn with sketch are instantly forgotten once the battle is over. This is not on the page for the move sketch, and i thought it would be helpful to anybody raising smeargles to not waste time like I did. (Anwill08 23:56, 30 October 2010 (UTC))

Just like Focus Sash being restored. I'll add that to Sketch's article for clarity. —darklordtrom 06:42, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Just a little suggestion

Since Gen v came out some pages are getting REALLY long, and even aren't complete (breeding),and it will be a nightmare if there's ever a "Generation VI" so i have the idea of putting the option to show the charts, for example... i'm playing DP and i want a Pokémon that can learn Aerial Ace by TM40 so i can show the part that i want --EzekielMaple 17:03, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

The previous generation movesets aren't currently on the main Pokémon pages. They are on subpages linked to from the Gen V learnset. Werdnae (talk) 00:48, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

I think Ezekiel is talking about the move articles. We're aware of this problem, and I guess we could shift the older generations off onto subpages at some point... —darklordtrom 06:18, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Old Animation Move Images

Do we have room to upload animations of moves from previous generations (i.e. Gen IV)?----Chalkwriter 16:01, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

We should still have all the Gen IV moves on the Archives. I know we also have all the Gen II moves and some Gen III moves. Once we have them from all generations they could probably be added to the infobox. Werdnae (talk) 20:49, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Though, if you have animations of the moves, feel free to upload those! Thse are so much better than the static images. (As long as they are in png format) ^Maverick_Nate 21:06, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

How am I going so far? Are they alright?----Chalkwriter 19:38, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Translations

Hi, I'd just like to ask a question. Most of the translations from Japanese in the mouseover text of Generation V moves (e.g. in Ball of Flame (move)) are very poor grammar-wise. Is it okay to just change these to be grammatically correct, or should this be done by someone who can be certain the meaning matches the original Japanese? Flicky1991 17:32, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

They actually aren't particularly poor. Much of the supposed 'poor grammar' is an attempt to convey the nuances of the meaning of the Japanese text. At this point we may as well just wait until the English games come out. It's only about a month away, so it's not a long wait. Werdnae (talk) 01:24, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Hide and Show "Learnset"

In order to reduce the size of the move pages I believe it would be useful to make it so that we can hide and show the Learnset section, OR hide and show each "Generation" subsection, OR hide and show each "By (leveling up, breeding, event)" subsubsection. Anyone agree with me or even have a clue of what I am talking about? - unsigned comment from Landfish7 (talk • contribs)

First off, remember to sign you comments with four tildes, Landfish7. On the topic though, I agree with possibly placing some of those in expendable boxes (if that's what you mean). We already have a template for expendale boxes which we use in walkthrough pages. I quite like the idea of not having to scroll down all the time to se the generation that I want.----Chalkwriter 19:43, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

You still have to load the whole page, though, so you aren't really saving on anything. If you want a specific generation, you could use the table of contents to navigate. —darklordtrom 05:31, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

In The TCG

This is just an idea, and I understand if it is deemed unnecessary or just simply unwanted. What are the opinions of an 'In The TCG' section on move pages? This would consist of either a series of links or a small table (also with links) displaying name, set, number of the Pokemon that can use the move. If such a thing were to go ahead I'd be happy to try implementing it myself. But of course this may be deemed useless information or too cluttery or similar, so I was just wondering if people were for or against the idea... Nytik 22:57, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

In other languages

I'd like to know the rules for the "In other languages" section. Apart from the names used in officially translated main series games, what should be there and what should not? I would like to know what I can safely delete. Nechifor 06:22, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Official names from any media may be in the in other languages section. Please be careful when deleting, I know some anime dubs have changed the term used for a certain move over time, the same may be the case for other media. I don't know how much this affects moves and abilities, but there was a case with the Guardian Signs official site where the characters were given names in a language that the games weren't translated into (or if they were, just used the names from another translation). Obviously if there's never been anything officially translated into that language then you can remove it on sight. Werdnae (talk) 20:14, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. I've seen some new moves translated into languages with no localized games nor anime, but I wouldn't know if they have been mentioned in other local media, so I'll leave it be. Nechifor 07:30, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

PMD data in Move pages

I'm not a member, but I figured this would be a good place to ask. Are we putting PMD info on Move pages? Fore example Heat Wave hitting all enemies on the floor, their PP, power (It's different is PMD) and stuff like that. If yes, I could help adding them. --TheTK^Talk*Edits 12:23, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Battle Categories

I think the move infobox template should be edited to where you can put an asterisk after the category if it was a different category prior to Gen IV. For example Hyper Beam was a physical move in Gen I, II, and III, but a special move in Gen IV and V. I think this should be mentioned on the move's article, not just the type article. When I try to add the asterisk, the template makes it come out wrong. PkmnChmp5 03:05, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Does anyone have anything to say about this? PkmnChmp5 23:10, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Pokémon Rumble Blast

In the effect parts of attack pages, can I write the effect in Pokémon Rumble Blast? —Pokéglare :D :P :) XD Happy Dance: °(^o^°) (°^o^°) (°^o^)°

I don't see any reason not to. Werdnae (talk) 03:52, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Move pictures

Should we upload move images from the Pokémon Rumble series?

—Pokéglare

Peace! Out!

Yes, and added to the lower section regarding in different generations. --Spriteit 04:04, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Breeding tables

Okay, so they only include level up parents, when it comes to chain breeding though, take for example, Bulbasaur in Gen II, Charm is listed as being chain bred via, Nidorino, Nidoking and the Shroomish family, yet it can also be bred using the Oddish family and Snorlax? --Spriteit 04:04, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Suggestion for Ability tables

I am not skilled enough at editing to carry this out, but I think the tables on ability pages that show what Pokémon can have a specific Ability should be formatted such that readers do not necessarily need to know when Abilities were introduced. If there were additional lists for each generation, the other abilities Pokémon had in previous generations (if any changed, and I suspect Numel and Camerupt were at least one evolutionary line to do so, but I could be wrong) can also be listed. This would be particularly useful for players who, for example, did not play Generation III or Generation IV games. This could alternatively be accomplished using superscripts that indicate when the Ability became available or stopped being available for that species. Again, I do not know enough about the wikicode to do this myself. Feedback would be appreciated. Superbreeder 23:55, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm joining

Please add London86editor to the list of contributors - unsigned comment from London86editor (talk • contribs)

You can add your name to the list yourself. Crystal Talian 04:30, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Counter, Mirror Coat, and Metal Burst

Is there any reason in particular Metal Burst is not listed as a variation of Counter/Mirror Coat? --V4Victini (talk) 23:11, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Standardizing moves?

I went through Additional effects and ended up with a classification of secondary effects and a machine-parseable list of moves and their secondary effects (here). It's made me think about standardizing move infoboxes and effect descriptions.

For example, the HP draining moves can have their descriptions replaced with

{{effect/drain|75%}}

And would expand as:

Draining Kiss does damage and restores the user's HP by 75% of damage dealt.

If the user is holding a [[Big Root]], the user's HP recovery is instead boosted to 97.5% of the damage dealt. (The Big Root does not increase damage dealt.)

[[Category:HP-draining moves|75%]]

You can also have, for example, "{{effect-update/confusion|chance=20%}}" to expand to "Dizzy Punch now has a 20% chance of confusion the target." (which would take care of both added/changed effects and changed percentage chances).

The point of this kind of thing is to make it easier to run bots to collect and correct numbers. --Raijinili (talk) 14:52, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Proposed new category/page: Moves with Hidden Effects

I believe a page should be dedicated to moves with 'hidden effects.' Since at least 2nd gen, there have been moves that have extra effects beyond the ones mentioned in the move's description. I am referring to moves such as Stomp, which does extra damage when the opponent has used Minimize, and Rollout, which starts on level 2 if the pokemon used Defense Curl in the previous turn. There are many others, and I'm sure that a lot of them are not generally known (I for one, only a few minutes ago learned that rock types get a special defense bonus during a Sandstorm). Having an organized page or category for moves like these would help more people learn about these additional benefits. Legionaireb (talk) 17:20, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

This sounds like a good idea to me. I'm not sure how well-known Thunder and Hurricane plus rain is, but it's a neat trick. --Wynd Fox 18:27, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

By event and special move

Both go at the very bottom of the learnset section. So, here's a rundown of how they currently work (from my observations). I originally started compiling this for personal reference, but figured it was best to put it here to make it clear what conventions I was following. --SnorlaxMonster 18:21, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Special move

This is listed as the first of the two. If a Pokémon has a move exclusive to an in-game gift or trade (or one from a side series or spin-off game), purification, or when caught in a specific place (i.e. Pokéwalker or Dream World), then that move is listed as a special move.

While completely different, the moves Rotom learns while changing forms are listed here too (and ignore all guidelines for this category).

Moves are included here even if the Pokémon learns it by other ways if it is only learned by the following ways:

• TM/HM
• Move Tutor
• Egg move
• Light Ball breeding
• Pre-evolution-exclusive
• Previous generation-exclusive
• Sketch
• Special or event move
• Level-up move learned at a later level (the level the Pokémon is obtained at is noted)

By event

This is listed as the second of the two. If a Pokémon has a move exclusive to an event distribution or Global Link promotion, then that move is listed as an event move. Moves known by Pokémon obtained in locations, in-game events, Pokéwalker courses and Dream World areas that can only be accessed with events are not considered to be event moves.

Moves are included here even if the Pokémon learns it by other ways if it is only learned by the following ways:

• Egg move
• Light Ball breeding
• Pre-evolution-exclusive
• Previous generation-exclusive
• Sketch
• Special or event move
• Level-up move learned at a later level (the level the Pokémon is obtained at is noted)

TM/HM moves (Snarl, Defog, Whirlpool) and Move Tutor moves exclusive to some games within a generation are also ignored for the purposes of event moves.

Movelist redirect

Minor issue - most people probably won't care, but I know we strive to steer clear of redirects. On the template for the move list on type pages, the Contest style (Cool/Beauty/Tough/Smart/Cute) links to <style> Contest when it should link to <style> (Condition). Again, it's a minor thing, but I don't currently have permissions to change it. ~Zaffre~ 14:02, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

ORAS level learning templates

So, you know how in the section for moves that shows at which levels they're learned, there are extra tags like B2W2 to show that the move was learned at a different level in Black and White than in Black 2 and White 2? And it splits the level learned section in half and shows the two different levels the move is learned at? Well, there doesn't seem to be a tag for ORAS/XY. Is this an addition that is in the works? Newtonium (talk) 01:53, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

I assume it should be. I went onto the forums a bit ago and asked myself, and it was conformed to be in progress. Superjustinbros. (talk) 18:14, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

There is already, I believe all the learn lists should have already been updated unless I'm mistaken. The only exception being the TM lists for Dive, Rock Smash and Secret Power. --Spriteit (talk) 23:29, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

I did contact Kogoro regarding Dive, which would by rule also extend down to Rock Smash and Secret Power. It looks like, for now, they aren't being split because new templates are being tested. For the time being, I added the Kalos species that are capable of learning Dive, and we can use a tooltip (possibly even a prose note) that Dive is only available in OR/AS. When the new templates are available and those charts get moved over, I think they will be able to be updated then. CycloneGU (talk) 23:47, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

"Affected by Crafty Shield" section in Move Inbox

Per the title above. There is nothing in the template stating which moves can and cannot be affected by Crafty Shield. I know it's a move that can only be learned by one Pokémon but considering we have sections for Portect (which Crafty Shield is similar to), it could be useful. Superjustinbros. (talk) 18:14, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Affected by Mirror Move

I was looking through the move pages, and I noticed a lot of moves which I think would be affected by Mirror Move but which don't say so. Shadow Claw, Torment, Rock Tomb are just some of them. Even Rock Slide, which is presented on Mirror Move's page as an example of a move it can copy, doesn't state that it's affected by Mirror Move.

On the other hand, some move pages DO state that their moves are affected by Mirror Move, e.g. Aerial Ace.

I see that the "Affected by Mirror Move" is an entirely optional field in the infobox, in that there is no default message that appears - not defining the field will not show any message at all about Mirror Move, one way or the other. This may have something to do with the missing information, that and the template code on the project page not listing mirrormove (conversely, it DOES list brightpowder despite it not doing anything).

So with all that said, my question is: do we want this "affected by Mirror Move" information in the infobox? If yes, it's incomplete, and if no, it should be thoroughly removed and the infobox template edited accordingly.

This mention of Mirror Move (and Bright Powder) can lead on to the more general question of what information should be in the infobox (the section above mentions Crafty Shield, for example), although that's probably beyond the scope of this particular section of this discussion page. ~ Serial Colour (talk) 02:14, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

New Generation Screenshots

It seems that the lack of emulators of 3DS makes hard to take easy screenshots from moves, the only ones are the ones made by the oficial web site or videos, this generation seems it will have no new screenshots.... --WikiAldo (talk) 03:08, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Or people with capture cards, which we do have, just it's at their will when and what they provide. --Spriteit (talk) 05:19, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Categorization by damage and accuracy

I think it would be appropriate to categorize damaging moves by power, and perhaps accuracy too. The Pokemon are already categorized by their stat totals, yet the power on moves is much more relevant to the games. TehPerson (talk) 07:02, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Removal of PP as criterion for move variation

The use of PP for classifying whether or not a move is a variation of another move is unnecessarily strict and unclear.

1. The rule of 5 PP is completely arbitrary rule and would lead to much confusion. For example, Reflect is obviously a variation of Light Screen, yet not classified as variations of each other due to having a high PP difference. However, by this definition, Reflect can be a variation of Safeguard (20 vs 25 PP), and Safeguard can be a variation of Light Screen (25 vs 30), but since Reflect and Light Screen have a 10 PP difference, they cannot be considered variations of each other. Either make it that PP must be exactly the same, or not have this criterion at all.

2. Moves with identical power, accuracy, effects, etc should obviously be variations of each other. Defend Order and Cosmic Power do the exact same thing, yet cannot be classified as variations of each other simply due to a PP difference. If someone wants to find a Water-type equivalent for Scratch, they should be able to navigate to Water Gun, since they are both 40/100. The difference in PP is probably just common type-discrimination by game designers and shouldn't be accounted for anyways.

tl;dr - PP is the weakest criterion for classification as a move variation, because the rules revolving around it are both arbitrary and unclear.

TehPerson (talk) 08:38, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

I think moves variations are supposed to be similar, and that doesn't mean just in effect. A move that you can only use 5 times has a very different feel from a move you can use 40 times. Admittedly, though, if they do have similar power/effects, most moves aren't likely to have nearly so drastic a PP variation. I guess I'm saying I think there is justification for some limit perhaps; on the other hand, for something like Reflect and Light Screen, I do feel it is clear that they are variations. ...I just don't know (don't have any idea) if it would really be best to totally get rid of PP as a criteria.

In short, I think I could go either way on it. Tiddlywinks (talk) 08:57, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

A 5-PP move and a 40-PP move would usually have elements outside of PP that would make them incomparable. In most cases, PP differences are trivial at best. You're never going to see a move like Water Gun have the same PP as a move like Hydro Pump anyways. Removing this criterion would simply make the definition of a move variant more clear and concise. TehPerson (talk) 09:46, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

I also think the "5 apart" rule for PP is dumb. The PP rule should be a hard "must have exactly the same PP rule". We're far too lax with our definition of "move variations", with plenty of significantly different moves classified as variations. If the moves are similar but have different PP, we shouldn't consider them variations. --SnorlaxMonster 09:59, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

The problem with that is the game itself doesn't seem to have solid reasons for assigning PP. Swords Dance used to be a "variation" of Agility because they were both +2 stat modifiers with 30 PP. However, this is no longer the case in Gen VI simply because Nintendo gave it a trivial PP reduction, yet the move is still exactly the same. And of course, most people would agree that Light Screen and Reflect are variations of each other, but are simply assigned different PP values. And if we go even stricter on the PP criterion, then identical moves like Protect and Detect, Seismic Toss and Night Shade, etc would no longer be classified as variations. So although I agree being stricter on PP value would add more clarity than the 5-PP-difference rule, I think the best solution is to simply remove it since it is too trivial compared to other factors (power, accuracy, and effects). TehPerson (talk) 16:27, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Categorize attacking moves by power

For any damaging move, the power is what players look at first to assess its usefulness. If a move is powerful but inaccurate (eg Focus Blast), it will be considered for competitive play; if a move is accurate but weak, it would not even be counted as viable (eg Pound).

With that said, it should be obvious that moves should be categorized by their power. Fire Blast is a Fire-type counterpart for Thunder. And thus if a reader were on the article for Fire Blast, they should also be able to navigate to Thunder if they wanted to find an electric-type equivalent. The current system of "move variants" is too strict, ambiguous, and often self-contradictory for this. We could also say Fire Blast is a "move counterpart" to Thunder, like Light Screen is a "counterpart" but not a "variant" of Reflect, but then people will debate the definition over that too.

Categorizing moves by their power creates no ambiguity, as the numbers are already set in stone by the games. Shadow Ball is a variant of Flash Cannon? Apparently it is. Then again, some of the mods disagree, since they don't have the same chance for secondary effects. Regardless of "Variant" or "Counterpart" or whatever jargon is appropriate, they are both Power 80 moves and can be navigated to each other if someone wanted to find a Steel-equivalent to Shadow Ball.

The only problem I see with this is that every page for damaging moves must be edited, as there is no shortcut to editing the template, as current templates also take a value for the "power" of non-damaging moves (and other string-related issues). However, that of course isn't really a good reason to neglect it.

One way to do so is by simply adding '''[[Category: Moves with a power of XX]]''' to the bottom of the page. Another way is to use these kinds of templates, which would add a categorization by power and allow readers to easily navigate to equivalent moves. (The templates have been tested via "Show Preview." Of course, they have not been implemented.)

In short, categorizing moves by their power is reasonable because it is what players look at first. This can all be done cleanly, as it won't change anything else but further organize the move database in an unambiguous manner.

TehPerson (talk) 07:54, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Though staff don't want to use too many parser functions, I would think they would much prefer adding a parser function (testing if the power is "—" should mostly suffice) to {{MoveInfobox}} over editing 600+ pages.

That said, I tend to feel that sorting the table on List of moves is enough. Tiddlywinks (talk) 08:26, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm aware of the List of moves page, but this type of categorization will make it easier to navigate to similar moves. We already categorize Pokemon by their base stat totals (which is at most as important as a Move's power), yet there's a separate list for that as well. The current problem with parser functions is that we have too many types of non-integer inputs for the "power" field in the infobox.

Anyways, I tested this function for the current MoveInfobox template, simply by adding it to the includeonly tags. This will automatically categorize the move if and only if the power field is an integer. Thus, values such as "-" and "Varies" and "{{tt|420|88 in gen VII}}" would not be counted for.

{{#iferror: {{#ifexpr: {{{power}}} > 0}}||[[Category: Moves with a power of {{{power}}}]]}}

I know that because of this, moves with notes due to inter-generation changes will not be affected. One solution is to slightly change the MoveInfobox template so that power and notes regarding power are separate fields, so that the parser function can eventually work for all moves with a numeric power. This can be done cleanly, since moves without notes on their power will be unaffected, and moves that need to be changed will not look different until manually changed.

The code for doing so is simply {{#if:{{{power note|}}}|{{tt|*|{{{power note}}}}}}}, placed right after where the base power should appear.

The same can also be done for accuracy, simply replacing all instances of "power" with "accuracy."

TehPerson (talk) 14:58, 17 July 2015 (UTC)