Talk:Legendary Pokémon/Archive1

Even in the anime, are Entei, Raikou, and Suicune ever thought of as gods? I thought they were spirits or embodiments of their elements.

Is Mewtwo really a Legendary? It's even less related to being a God than Raikou, Entei and Suicune, as it's just a mutant created in a laboratory. Also, in the Symphonic Medley Opening, you don't see Mewtwo coupling with the other Legendaries. Perhaps this article should be made more precise, telling the reader that Mewtwo isn't really a Legendary, but often is mentioned as a Legendary, as it has legendary powers (from mew)? What do you think? --nYoo 21:50, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I personally think it's safe to assume that Mewtwo is a legendary, but a note might be added about that. Also, how do you say legendary in Japanese? More curious than anything, it doesn't have to be added to the page -Greengiant

The question is whether maboroshi and densetsu are exclusive categories. Are there any Pokémon which are maboroshi and in densetsu? Some of the maboroshi Pokémon are present in densetsu, such as Lugia (although a veiled reference); Latios and Latias are featured in densetsu, but their species is mugen Pokémon - perhaps a roundabout self-reference to the nature of legendary Pokémon - but English species name Eon suggests a pun between 無限 (infinite) and 夢幻 (fantasy) rather than that. - 振霖_T 08:16, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I realy wonder If any trainer ever captured (or already captured) an densetsu or maboroshi? (exept Giovanni he owned mewto for a limited time)

Mewtwo is more of the maboroshi than the densetsu. Determining weither or not it's 'densetsu' or not depends on which canon we use. In the Anime, the Kanto Bird Trio certainly is densetsu, but in the games, they are barely mentioned, except by a few Bird Keepers. Should the message at the bottom about the Regis have info added to include Regigigas or not? I believe that it is the sealed Pokemon that the caves in Hoenn warn about. --PikamasterADV 15:54, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. I always assumed it referred to all three Gen III Regis but in the light of Diamond and Pearl that is a good possibility. --FabuVinny 23:08, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

An interesting point is that DP itself uses the terms maboroshi and densetsu, and this is translated into English as mirage and legendary, respectively. It also seems to suggest that maboroshi is a subset of densetsu. - 振霖_T 08:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Regarding this, should we mention which categories each Legendary falls under? If there's a list somewhere in Japanese? --Greengiant 02:45, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

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I think that the Sinnoh Myths article should be merged with this one, or else the entire section on "Myths and Legends involving Legendary Pokémon" might need to be its own article (perhaps called something like "Myths and Legends of the Pokémon World" so it has greater scope?) with the Sinnoh Myths part of that. Just an idea, because I saw that it's a featured article candidate now, and the myths section looks sort of subpar. --Greengiant 02:42, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

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I think that Unown should defiantly be considered a lengendary. --Ryguy 11:30, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Like Arcanine, I suppose it could be considered as having legendary characteristics, but really, it's not legendary. Legendaries are pretty much completely defined by the fact that they are one-per-game Pokémon that are not able to breed and produce offspring that either is or can become the same species. And, of course, how many Unown can you get? A lot. --TTEchidna 01:37, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Solaceon Ruins?

Should a translation of the Unown runes there be on this page? --Angerman 10:18, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

What about Absol?

Sometimes, aren't absol considered legendary?

No. I've never heard of Absol being legendary, and I know a lot about Absol. :S TinaTheKirlia ♥ File:281MS.gif 02:29, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think they're ever considered legendary. They have appeared close to legendaries, because Absol are disaster-sensing Pokémon, and there are no bigger disasters than those caused by legendaries and their interaction with nature ;) --Johans 02:42, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Giratina

Since when was Giratina confirmed to have been created from Arceus? And even more pertinent, since when have Cresscelia and Darkrai been said to have been created from Giratina? --Zeta 04:11, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

According to the games, Arceus is the "Original One." This would mean that everything in the Pokémon world was either created by Arceus or by another Pokémon that was created by Arceus, or another Pokémon that was created by a Pokémon that was created by Arceus, and so on. Giratina is clearly too powerful to have been created by Uxie, Mesprit, Azelf, Dialga, or Palkia, so by a process of elimination, Giratina was created by Arceus. Also, this article wouldn't be on Bulbapedia if Giratina wasn't recognized by everyone as being created by Arceus (I didn't start the article). Now, as for why Cresselia and Darkrai were created by Giraina. First, they were nowhere near powerful enough to be straight from Arceus. Therefore, they must either be from Dialga and Palkia, Giratina, or Uxie, Mesprit, and Azelf. Due to the fact that they essentially have nothing to do with time and space, they would have to be created by either Giratina or the Lake Trio. Since there is no mention of Cresselia or Darkrai in the legends in the Canalave Library (Giratina isn't mentioned because it was unknown), they can't have been made by the Lake Trio either. Therefore, by a process of elimination, Giratina created Cresselia and Darkrai. --Shiny Noctowl^{Talk | Contribs}File:Ani164MS.gif 12:24, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

That's nothing but original research. None of us get the right to say something isn't "powerful enough" to be created by Arceus. Unless Game Freak/Tajiri/etc. announce any of that, you can't treat it as fact.--Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 12:49, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

That is entirely all speculation on your part. I'm surprised you didn't try to shove all the other Legendaries into that absurd "family tree". So did Kyogre give birth to Manaphy or did Lugia mate with Latias? *rolls eyes* And that article you linked to is about fan terminology, so that isn't confirming it as fact. --Zeta 19:21, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

That article I linked to says that Giratina is on an equal level (power-wise, not in-game level-wise) as Dialga and Palkia. And I didn't add the other legendaries because they, unlike Giratina, Darkrai, and Cresselia, have no proof of their relationships with other legendary Pokémon. If I was going to add an "absurd family tree" as you called it, I would have added this (some of the sub-relationships are confirmed, but their relationships with Gen IV haven't been confirmed yet, so I couldn't add them). --Shiny Noctowl^{Talk | Contribs}File:Ani164MS.gif 23:04, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

No, the article you linked to just said that "The Dragon trio is a term used to refer to Giratina, Dialga, and Palkia". It doesn't say anything about these mysterious "power levels" that seem to only exist in your mind, nor that the three all came from Arceus anymore than Kyogre, Groudon, and Rayquaza do. Nor does it say anything about Darkrai and Cresselia being siblings or Giratina being their mother. This is entirely fanwank speculation on your part. --Zeta 00:29, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

By "power levels," I just meant that they are equally powerful. --Shiny Noctowl^{Talk | Contribs}File:Ani164MS.gif 00:56, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Again, according to this weird definition of power that depends entirely on your opinion of Pokedex entries and not anything according to game stats or anything. --Zeta 01:15, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes it is based on stats. Look:

Giratina

HP: 150

Attack: 100

Defense: 120

SpAtk: 100

SpDef: 120

Speed: 90

Total: 680

Dialga

HP: 100

Attack: 120

Defense: 120

SpAtk: 150

SpDef: 100

Speed: 90

Total: 680

Palkia

HP: 90

Attack: 120

Defense: 100

SpAtk: 150

SpDef: 120

Speed: 100

Total: 680

Not only do they all have the same total base stats (680) but they have the same distributions (one 150, two 120s, two 100, and one 90). This clearly shows that they are a trio. --Shiny Noctowl^{Talk | Contribs}File:Ani164MS.gif 01:25, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Hey, I just noticed something kind of awkward about Palkia. You know it's in-game base HP, 90. Now look at a card scan of Palkia from the Diamond & Pearl TCG set. If you notice, they have the exacly the same HP. Take an example from Shednga. In-game-1-TCG-up to 50.-Groudon465File:Ani383MS.gifFile:Ani201MS.gif 9:40 p.m., 10 October 2007 (CT)

Having identical stats does not make Pokemon siblings. Pokedex entries, flavor text, and cannon stories make Pokemon siblings. Fan assumptions do not count. End of story. --Zeta 04:41, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Every single legendary trio has the same total base stats with the same distributions between stats. Therefore, my argument is valid until you can find three unrelated Pokémon that have the same base stat total with the same distribution. --Shiny Noctowl^{Talk | Contribs}File:Ani164MS.gif 12:23, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

First of all, please get it through your head that stats have no effect on Pokemon background or flavor information. Second of all, easily done. Shaymin. Manaphy. Mew. Jirachi. Celebi. I guess they all come from some unnamed "mother" Pokemon as well, right? --Zeta 16:12, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I said unrelated Pokémon. --Shiny Noctowl^{Talk | Contribs}File:Ani164MS.gif 01:35, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

And you first said:

Again, according to this weird definition of power that depends entirely on your opinion of Pokedex entries and not anything according to game stats or anything.

But then completely reversed it and said:

Having identical stats does not make Pokemon siblings.  Pokedex entries, flavor text, and cannon stories make Pokemon siblings.

First you say that base stats are important and Pokédex entries aren't important, and then you say that base stats aren't important and Pokédex entries are important. Which is it? --Shiny Noctowl^{Talk | Contribs}File:Ani164MS.gif 01:35, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I think a more sound argument will note that all of the highest-powered legendaries of a generation typically have their stats sum to 680, as Mewtwo does, too. That doesn't imply lineage, directly anyway. Also, your argument that power doesn't increase down an "evolutionary" or other chain is disproven by Mewtwo, who is significantly more "powerful" than Mew in every canonical respect save learnset. evkl 12:56, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay. About Giratina and everything. Go compare Dialga, Palkia and Giratina's stats and level-up moves.

Stats: 150 (1), 120 (2), 100 (2), 90 (1).

Moves in common - Scary Face and DragonBreath at L:1.

STAB move at 10.

AncientPower at 20.

Dragon Claw at 30.

Signature move at 40.

Heal Block at 50.

Earth Power at 60.

Slash at 70. (I say wtc at this one. Why Slash?!)

Powerful STAB move at 80.

Aura Sphere at 90.

(Note that the ONLY differences between the movepools between the movepools is the STAB moves, and the signature moves. Coincidental? I think not.) TinaTheKirlia ♥ File:281MS.gif 16:45, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

It's obvious that they're related. And Giratina will be the third version mascot. However, that's a conclusion and not a fact. Still, I don't get why doesn't Giratina appear in the article anymore. Did it start a Shadow Force? If the trouble is because of classifying it as a "legendary dragon", then let's just place Giratina next to Regigigas and the others, and mention its possible relation to Dialga and Palkia while the third version doesn't appear. --Johans 17:24, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

You say "It's obvious they're related." So it should be added back into the article.

Legendary trio	Existence trio
Attacks (Attacks in bold do direct damage)	Start	DragonBreath Scary Face
	10	Metal Claw	Water Pulse	Ominous Wind
	20	AncientPower
	30	Dragon Claw
	40	Roar of Time	Spacial Rend	Shadow Force
	50	Heal Block
	60	Earth Power
	70	Slash
	80	Flash Cannon	Aqua Tail	Shadow Claw
	90	Aura Sphere

File:Ani164MS.gifShiny^{Talk | Contribs}File:Ani408MS.gifFile:Ani410MS.gif 19:27, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

hey, i did this! by the way, giratina IS PART OF THIS TRIO. just wait till pokemon opal comes out. you'll see. there is a website if you don't believe in me: [1]. Uxie wisdom^{Talk | Legendaries} 22:31, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Ummmmmmmmmmmmm............... that link just goes to the nintendo website..........It has nothing about girantina! --File:Spr 3e 115.gifTheryguy512File:Spr 3e 202.gifFile:Spr 3e 327.gif 22:46, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I KNOW THAT! but it's strange anyway. you can see a better description here: [2]. scroll down until you see Sunday - May 6th, 2007. Uxie wisdom^{Talk | Legendaries} 23:11, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

The guy said it was an APRIL FOOLS JOKE! --File:Spr 3e 115.gifTheryguy512File:Spr 3e 202.gifFile:Spr 3e 327.gif 23:45, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

no, he said that someone made it up and THAT was an April fools joke. still, the website still exists. And the registrant of that site (which likns to nintendo) is nintendo! think whatever you want, dude, but ever since i read this, it got stuck on my head. Uxie wisdom^{Talk | Legendaries} 11:06, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

The fact that Nintendo that domain name certainly is suspicious. However, Nintendo has also filed a bunch of weird trademarks like "Pokémon Amethyst," and we shouldn't think about a website redirect so hard. It may mean absolutely nothing; for example, J.K. Rowling has a history of filing trademarks for fake Harry Potter titles.--Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 22:18, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Problem

Yep, there's a problem with Giratina being part of the Dragon Trio...Guess what? It is not in the Sinnoh Pokédex! Looking at the before Sister games, you can conclude that the region's Pokédex stays the same until the defeat of the Elite Four. So, in conclusion, Giratina will NOT be in the main storyline of the sister game of Diamond and Pearl. In other words, The only Legendaries left to be the next game's mascot are the Lake Trio and Manaphy! Big Problem, right? At least Rayquaza and Suicune were in their region Pokédexes! The likeliness of a sister game to DP is low, very low...File:Ani475MS.gif Agent 448^{δ | DP} | ☆ 12:21, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Nintendo will probably come up with a way around it. Maybe the main storyline happens after you become the Champion. Or maybe, the main storyline happens before you become the Champion, but you don't get to actually catch Giratina until after you become the Champion. File:Ani164MS.gifShiny^{Talk | Contribs}File:Ani408MS.gifFile:Ani410MS.gif 12:26, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I doubt it. Most game event take place before the elite four and the star Pokémon is usually obtainable before the elite four anyway (I used a master ball on the Rayquaza) File:Ani475MS.gif Agent 448^{δ | DP} | ☆ 12:30, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Forgetting that Rayquaza was only obtainable after the E4? Yes, it was in Hoenn Dex.. but even then, you CAN get Pokémon not in Sinnoh Dex - for example, I did have 100 Eevee before the Elite Four - I just couldn't view their dex data or number. So um.. yeah, I still think it's possible ^^; I think you got Rayquaza before the E4 in Emerald, though I'm not sure because I haven't got to that point yet. TinaTheKirlia ^{♪☆File:Ani281MS.gif} 16:17, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, yeah. I was talking bout Emerald. And it's true, Rayquaza is the star Pokémon and can be captured before the E4...File:Ani475MS.gif Agent 448^{δ | DP} | ☆ 09:40, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, the regional Pokédex numeration is not so determinant IMO. They could also enlarge the Sinnoh Pokédex for the third version specifically. Since the regional Pokédex is a game-specific feature and not a file-specific feature, it's possible. Emerald took place after Ruby & Sapphire chronologically, so maybe they'll expand the Sinnoh Pokédex months/years later. Maybe the Spring Path will open right after you catch Dialga and Palkia and before you become the champion. Let Oak give you the National Pokédex when you meet every Pokémon plus Giratina. --Johans 16:24, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Now that has never EVER happened before in one of the sister games. And I just had a horrible thought. Since I saw Suicune as Crystal's mascot, the next game's mastcot could be Mesprit...Okay, that gives us FIVE Pokémon...*sigh* File:Ani475MS.gif Agent 448^{δ | DP} | ☆ 09:10, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

What thing never happened? ^_^' And yeah, Mesprit is like a Generation IV Suicune. With the exception that the choice of Suicune only happened in the third version (not Gold and Silver), while the peculiarities of Mesprit exist since the first two versions, before Opal. Also Ho-Oh and Lugia didn't have a Rayquaza/Giratina in their generation. Dialga rules time, Palkia rules space, and maybe Giratina rules the whole reality and is the ultimate goal of Cyrus or something. --Johans 15:55, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

They have NEVER enlarged the Pokédex before...Giratina rules the underworld, maybe Cyrus want to bring back Pokémon from the dead...It's just a thought...File:Ani475MS.gif Agent 448^{δ | DP} | ☆File:Ani282MS.gif 02:14, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Has it ever occurred to anyone that maybe since Giratina is from another dimension that maybe it's not supposed to really be grouped with the pokemon that we know of. I mean, there could be another dimension with other pokemon, other people, and another pokemon god just as powerful as Arceus, maybe more powerful. For all we know, Giratina could be the weakest pokemon in that dimension, maybe it's the Magikarp of the dimension. But I doubt the world of pokemon is that complicated.

p.s. can you guys checkout the Double Battle page and look under the article I, kirby3003, made, "Pokemon Pairs Often Used In Double Battles". I think some of the pairs I put don't make sense or are a little too fanny, if you know what I mean...

A Quartet???

Just thoght I should point out that Phione, Manaphy, Heatran and Shaymin all seem to complement eachother. Could it be that they are the 1st Legendary Quartet?

No. I have NO idea how Heatran is related to them. AT ALL. Shaymin, Phione, Manaphy all fit in the Cute category. Heatran goes in the 'I HAVE NO IDEA D8' category. Tina^☆♥♫δ 01:43, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

And besides, Phione is far weaker, and Heatran has higher base stats. File:Ani164MS.gifShiny^?! 01:44, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok, stats aside, they each represent one domains of the legendaries. Fire, Water, and Grass. Although it is a bit of a stretch, I am not talking about their relative stats, I'm talking about Pokémon Mythos. They have played a large role in shaping the world.

But still. NONE of them have to do with the land. This is a random thought to just give an excuse to categorize (Not the Wiki Way!) the last legends that don't fit. Tina^☆♥♫δ 22:43, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Manaphy is the 'Prince of the Sea' Shaymin causes Land to flourish, and creates a cleaner sky, and Heatran dwells in a volcano, hence land